Counter to Elitism

[Nix]

The solution to elitism is more cowbell

This is the solution to everything! You are wise my tall friend!

/sends you a box of Moro

[DubstepNinja]

This is the solution to everything! You are wise my tall friend!

/sends you a box of Moro

nom nom!

/sugarcoma

[Reynhart]

There's a way to counter "elitism" as everyone understands it.
In fact, the real problem is how people understand "casual play" and "hardcore play".
Casual players are not bad players, they just don't have several hours per day to invest on the game. Likewise, hardcore players are not necessarily good players.
I know people who can't properly do their job even if they spend hours and hours in the game.

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

Back in 1.XX, who deserved the better drop ? A party that could defeat Ifrit in 10 min without any casualties, or a party that killed it 10 times with a nearly full wipe each time ?

[Amiral_Benson]

There's a way to counter "elitism" as everyone understands it.
In fact, the real problem is how people understand "casual play" and "hardcore play".
Casual players are not bad players, they just don't have several hours per day to invest on the game. Likewise, hardcore players are not necessarily good players.
I know people who can't properly do their job even if they spend hours and hours in the game.

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

Back in 1.XX, who deserved the better drop ? A party that could defeat Ifrit in 10 min without any casualties, or a party that killed it 10 times with a nearly full wipe each time ?

I agree with everything you said Reynhart Kristensen, you made a very good summary, I really wish FFXIV:ARR become more a Skill to Win game and less a Play to Win game.

[Nayto]

There's a way to counter "elitism" as everyone understands it.
In fact, the real problem is how people understand "casual play" and "hardcore play".
Casual players are not bad players, they just don't have several hours per day to invest on the game. Likewise, hardcore players are not necessarily good players.
I know people who can't properly do their job even if they spend hours and hours in the game.

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

Back in 1.XX, who deserved the better drop ? A party that could defeat Ifrit in 10 min without any casualties, or a party that killed it 10 times with a nearly full wipe each time ?

I'm ganna go and say that's still going to promote 'elitism'. If there's a 'bonus' of any kind, people will 'segregate' others to streamline said bonus (aka 'experienced onry pls' parties for the 'each time X member dies you loose points' score). They'd also come up with a damnable exploit for that whm bonus, I'll bet you it'll become a standard to do nothing in battle first to reach a 'cure' threshold before having the party do anything in battle, to acheive MAXIMUM reward.

But I can see where your trying to go with this, trying to promote skilled play. Although in MMOs I find that skilled play is mistakened with 'whatever the hell get's this shit done fastest so I can go to sleep' kind of play, since people are oppurtuninsts and goes with whatever is the 'tried and tested' exploitable method.

[Eekiki]

There's a way to counter "elitism" as everyone understands it.
In fact, the real problem is how people understand "casual play" and "hardcore play".
Casual players are not bad players, they just don't have several hours per day to invest on the game. Likewise, hardcore players are not necessarily good players.
I know people who can't properly do their job even if they spend hours and hours in the game.

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

Back in 1.XX, who deserved the better drop ? A party that could defeat Ifrit in 10 min without any casualties, or a party that killed it 10 times with a nearly full wipe each time ?

You're describing a DKP system. This kind of thing has been done for a long time, and it doesn't do a thing to curb what the OP is calling elitism. In fact, it's made things worse over the years.

[Maxthunder]

There's a way to counter "elitism" as everyone understands it.
In fact, the real problem is how people understand "casual play" and "hardcore play".
Casual players are not bad players, they just don't have several hours per day to invest on the game. Likewise, hardcore players are not necessarily good players.
I know people who can't properly do their job even if they spend hours and hours in the game.

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

Back in 1.XX, who deserved the better drop ? A party that could defeat Ifrit in 10 min without any casualties, or a party that killed it 10 times with a nearly full wipe each time ?

This would be awesome, but than we would still have those that complain they cant get the best gear lol.

[Almalexia]

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

If this system were run by a nonhuman, it would easily punish the wrong people.

Let's say you have a PLD backed by a WHM. Despite the WHM's best efforts, sustaining the PLD becomes impossible. Too much healing rapidly depletes MP. The PLD finally eats dirt and the mob goes on a rampage, wiping the party.

The system says the WHM should be punished--

But wait.

The PLD didn't use damage mitigation abilities very efficiently. So, really, the PLD is to blame--

But wait!

This all could have been prevented if the BRD used Soul Voice and gave the WHM enough MP to see the battle through. The system would never have noticed the BRD is to blame--

BUT WAIT!

As it turns out, the BLMs were overcautious with nuking due to enmity concerns, but they could have safely dealt thousands more damage. The battle would have been over more quickly if not for the BLMs--

BUT WAIT!

The DRG dealt the bare minimum of damage necessary for reward then alt-tabbed to complain about immersion on the Lodestone. The system didn't realize it was being played by the DRG--

BUT WAIT!

You didn't invite a MNK. What's wrong with you?

BUT

WAIT!

The chat log reveals the WHM never once let the PLD cure himself: clear evidence of an incompetent WHM. So, the system was right all along in punishing the WHM.

Right?

Wrong.

It was a Salvage-style dungeon and the PLD never had his magic unlocked. Furthermore, the mob frequently inflicted amnesia and kept the PLD from effectively mitigating damage.

Is any programmable system sophisticated enough to measure all these variables and allot points fairly? No. It would be as superficial as a parser without any regard for context or non-numerical performance. "Knowing your job" would scarcely factor into it.

The game shouldn't be scoring individuals for party-based content anyway. That's the party's business. The game should only impose impartial measurements such as time trials or completion of objectives--something the whole party can work on. Otherwise, the game will devolve into a bunch of people playing together by themselves instead of cooperatively.

[Reynhart]

Let's say you have a PLD backed by a WHM. Despite the WHM's best efforts, sustaining the PLD becomes impossible. Too much healing rapidly depletes MP. The PLD finally eats dirt and the mob goes on a rampage, wiping the party.

The system says the WHM should be punished--

But wait.

...

Sorry, your post is a bit too long for me to quote it entirely, but you made a good point...except...you're only seeing the punishment side.
In your case, everybody died, there's already a penalty for the group. In fact a wipe is everyone's fault, even if Curing can be a major problem.

But let's say everyone starts with 0 points. Punishment is not an issue if we don't do negative values.

But wait !
The DRG dealt a great DPS, so he can get a better reward (There's no need to be a "minimum value for reward")

But wait !
The BLM also deat a lot of damage without being first on hate list, so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The BRD buffed the party accordingly (Ballad on mages, Paeon on DD, etc...) so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The PLD used damage mitigation well and lost only a few Hp per second, while staying up on the hate list. He should be rewarded too.

The system don't need to be overly precise, and shouldn't focus on punishment only.
Encourage people to play their job wisely, and they will learn to do it.

And you can keep an hamlet-type scoring to reward a good party as a whole.

But w

[Reynhart]

Let's say you have a PLD backed by a WHM. Despite the WHM's best efforts, sustaining the PLD becomes impossible. Too much healing rapidly depletes MP. The PLD finally eats dirt and the mob goes on a rampage, wiping the party.

The system says the WHM should be punished--

But wait.

...

Sorry, your post is a bit too long for me to quote it entirely, but you made a good point...except...you're only seeing the punishment side.
In your case, everybody died, there's already a penalty for the group. In fact a wipe is everyone's fault, even if Curing can be a major problem.

But let's say everyone starts with 0 points. Punishment is not an issue if we don't do negative values.

But wait !
The DRG dealt a great DPS, so he can get a better reward (There's no need to be a "minimum value for reward")

But wait !
The BLM also deat a lot of damage without being first on hate list, so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The BRD buffed the party accordingly (Ballad on mages, Paeon on DD, etc...) so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The PLD used damage mitigation well and lost only a few Hp per second, while staying up on the hate list. He should be rewarded too.

The system don't need to be overly precise, and shouldn't focus on punishment mainly. Encourage people to play their job wisely, and they will learn to do it.

And you can keep an hamlet-type scoring to reward a good party as a whole.

But wait !
You should have invited a MNK. I think dungeons should offer a little bonus if you avoid stacking jobs (The moreso when we'll have more jobs to play)