Counter to Elitism

[KaiTBF]

We could force everyone to use content finder, then all the elitists could do is scream to the heavens about how bad their luck in matchmaking is! mwahahahahaha!

But in all seriousness I don't think trying to stomp out elitism will do anything but hurt the game in the long run.

Also I think a distinction should be made between an elitist and a hardcore player, because there is a difference. A hardcore player is someone who spends more time and effort on a game than is the norm, while an elitist is someone who thinks anyone who isn't as leet as them doesn't deserve their time. You can have a hardcore player who's willing to help casuals and new players learn the ropes in a fight, but you typically won't find an elitist having anything to do with a casual or new player.
In other words even though elitists usually are (they damn well better be) hardcore players, being a hardcore player doesn't mean you're an elitist. It's all about the attitude. (Think rectangles and squares.)

[Almalexia]

Even accounting for the positive side, a system of measuring performance vs. reward would be oversimplified and arbitrary.

The DRG dealt a great DPS, so he can get a better reward (There's no need to be a "minimum value for reward")

There would have to be a minimum value of some kind. What distinguishes "great" DPS from "not-so-great" DPS? How else could the game possibly read and rate DPS performance?

The BLM also deat a lot of damage without being first on hate list, so he should be rewarded too.

What if the strategy depends on the BLM, or multiple BLMs, taking hate? What if the BLM is next on the hate list when the tank drops dead or disconnects (deliberately or not)? No system is dynamic enough to keep up with players' every strategy or eventuality.

The BRD buffed the party accordingly (Ballad on mages, Paeon on DD, etc...) so he should be rewarded too.

Again, no system is dynamic enough to know what players want, and it would be silly if it imposed a standard of "buffing accordingly." Does the system know when the DD could benefit more from Paeon or Minuet? What would it use to determine that? Hit rate? WS frequency?

And I can't argue with PLD.

Look, I wish we could have material reward for our individual performance. I'd revel in it. But without a thousand GMs monitoring every piece of content and reading chat logs 24/7, we will never get a system more sophisticated than a parser. You know parsers can't measure subjective data on "knowing your job" or "playing better," so people would be unfairly judged for doing something clever and breaking routine despite a successful event.

There is simply no way for the game to read and understand anything more complex than parser data. That's why I say, let the game only reward successes of the party collectively. No arbitrary reward system for the treasure coffers and no arbitrary reward system for the individual.

[Reynhart]

Even accounting for the positive side, a system of measuring performance vs. reward would be oversimplified and arbitrary.

Long post again

Monsters have a certain number of HP, dungeons have a certain amount of monster. So, there's a finite number of damage you can make over the course of the dungeon. The higher the percentage of HP you deplete, the better the DPS, simple.

I'm sorry, but any strategy where the BLM is supposed to take hits is a flaw in the game. For a mage, taking hits means dying, and dying can't be a strategy. Back in FFXI, some fights where done two times. First, in a "dry run", just to look how the fight goes without using items or 2h, dying, then retry. From a roleplay point of view (Which MMO should have more) it's pretty awkward.

For a dynamic system, think "Gambits" like FF XII. You can design severals "If...then..." sentences and when a player fulfill one sentence, you give him points. Higher priority sentences will yield more points. I tried to translate FFXI gameplay with a gambit system, and, suprisingly, with 15-20 sentences per job, you can cover almost any situation.

And if the programmed actions are too far from the real game, you can simply adjust the sentences without a big update.

[Almalexia]

The higher the percentage of HP you deplete, the better the DPS, simple.

A parser does this. Many people already use parsers to "keep score;" isn't this the elitism you're trying to get rid of?

I'm sorry, but any strategy where the BLM is supposed to take hits is a flaw in the game. For a mage, taking hits means dying,

Taking hate doesn't necessarily mean taking hits, and taking hits doesn't necessarily mean dying. I'm wondering if you played the same FFXI I did, or maybe you didn't know any BLMs who broke out of their traditional role.

and dying can't be a strategy.

Now I know we weren't playing the same FFXI.

For a dynamic system, think "Gambits" like FF XII. You can design severals "If...then..." sentences and when a player fulfill one sentence, you give him points. Higher priority sentences will yield more points. I tried to translate FFXI gameplay with a gambit system, and, suprisingly, with 15-20 sentences per job, you can cover almost any situation.

I agree this could fulfill a bare minimum of expectation for a given job. In a vacuum. Maybe every job should have a mandatory tutorial so people would learn the basics.

But that's only the beginning. Would you consider someone familiar with the basics to "know their job?" I wouldn't.

Every WHM has regen and cure, but how many know when one is better than the other? Not many.
Every WHM can nuke, but how many know when to nuke? Only a few.
Every WHM generates enmity, but how many give a shit? The answer may surprise you.

If you are surrounded by good WHMs (I don't know why I am picking on WHM, it could be any job) you may take these things for granted--also, lucky you--but the average WHM doesn't know the finer points. Furthermore, the game doesn't actively teach new WHMs any of these things. If they had nothing more than a gambit checklist, people would carry them out for credit without understanding why/how/when these things are important. It's like those advanced combos in fighting game tutorials: sure, I performed the combo for credit, but when could I practically use this? The game doesn't say. I may as well stick to simpler techniques, right?

Ultimately, it comes down to the player's own inquisitiveness and desire to improve. Many players will do the gambits for credit and never learn a damn thing (if the gambits are meant to improve their game), but the people who really care--the people who want to "know their job"--will ask questions. Why use this spell? What's the best ability rotation? Why use gear X over gear Y? The answers are out there, but the game itself won't answer most of them.

Maybe I've gone off the rails and I'm no longer talking about mere competence. The step from competent to exceptional in XI or XIV is so small it's a wonder why more people don't take it. I don't believe a system that scores individual players would improve them unless they already had a mind to improve themselves, in which case the gambit is redundant.

[Yashnaheen]

Maybe I've gone off the rails and I'm no longer talking about mere competence. The step from competent to exceptional in XI or XIV is so small it's a wonder why more people don't take it. I don't believe a system that scores individual players would improve them unless they already had a mind to improve themselves, in which case the gambit is redundant.

I agree with this. The difference between the two is small, but it requires a lot from a person. Paying attention (biggest issue), understanding your job and role, understanding the encounter, and caring enough to put in the effort to improve is more than a lot are willing to do... And is all it takes.

Easier access to information and a bit of teaching will help some, but it won't fix the issue that seems to be ADD and 'effort is bad' that effect the majority of mediocre players.

[Minai]

You should also keep in mind that varies person to person; for example, understanding the how/why/when and that fine line between amazing and "being okay" comes more naturally to some people than it does for others. I have noticed a lot of people, including myself, using parsers to try to understand why Gear A is better than Gear B, and when/where to use either set up, in addition to finding a skill rotation that gives you the most damage output. That fine line is also a lot of trial and error. Unfortunately there just isn't anything any of us can do to make the elitists go away, they will only simply migrate to their own circles of linkshells. If elitism is a concern of yours, perhaps you should either consider playing another game, or a console game instead, or just do your own thing and stop worrying about other people, though I personally believe that a lot of the "complaints" about elitism stems from some form of jealousy.

[Reynhart]

A parser does this. Many people already use parsers to "keep score;" isn't this the elitism you're trying to get rid of?

I'm not trying to remove elitism. As I said people generally consider Hardcore Player = Elite Player. IMO, it's not because you've done a dungeon 50 times that you're automatically good at this dungeon.
The game should not reward Hardcore player over Casual ones, but good player over...less good ones.

Now I know we weren't playing the same FFXI.

We were playing the same FFXI. Even FFXI had some stupid strategies from a roleplay point of view. I mentionned the "dry run" precisely for this.

I don't believe a system that scores individual players would improve them unless they already had a mind to improve themselves, in which case the gambit is redundant.

If you get better loot by improving yourself, that's a pretty good motivation. Nowadays, it doesn't matter if you manage to beat Ifrit without any casualties, the chances to obtain a weapon are the same.

Imagine if the "gambits" list a series of actions that "you should have done" while progressing in the dungeon. (Since it's a bunch of "If...then", it reacts dynamically). If you did 100% of what "you should have done", you get à 100% drop rate. If you "missed" 50% of the "good" actions, you get a drop rate of 50%, etc...Everyone will try to hit a "perfect score".

[Minai]

Imagine if the "gambits" list a series of actions that "you should have done" while progressing in the dungeon. (Since it's a bunch of "If...then", it reacts dynamically). If you did 100% of what "you should have done", you get à 100% drop rate. If you "missed" 50% of the "good" actions, you get a drop rate of 50%, etc...Everyone will try to hit a "perfect score".

OR you could just learn your job.

Personally I don't think a list of "what you should have done" actions is the best way to go about this. It would be much like learning the combos in Mortal Combat, or any other combo-based game really, and after about four runs through the dungeon, you'd just be able to play your mini DDR game of "match the combos" blindfolded. That doesn't suggest much of a challenge, but rather, routine. I also don't think drop rates should be affected by the amount of damage you do or the number of combos you preform. Dungeons take a team effort to complete it. It doesn't matter if you are new or a veteran group to a dungeon/boss fight/ etc. It has always been based on team work (and an extremely random item generator). The reward was the time bonus. If you completed this AV in this amount of time, then MAYBE the generator would be nice and drop a Corselet.

[syntaxlies]

Just a random wish. I hope ARR incorporates features which discourages elitism and promotes casual players participating in more dungeons, other higher end activities.

For Example:

Perhaps a higher drop rate bonus when having a first time dungeon player in your group.

Bonus XP for entire party when grouping with a player with high rested time.

I'm sure theres many other ways, but basically giving incentive to group with casual players.

Thanks for reading

If you want to counter elites start playing better. They won't seem so great if you stop being so bad

[Elexia]

As long as there's people who has the need to throw their e-dicks around and slap people with it (typical in end-game shells/guilds) elitism will always exist. No counters no prevention it's inevitable.