Dark Knight DD or Tank

[syntaxlies]

Until we get a level cap or a change in system thats how it appears to be :/

Limiting incoming class abilities makes balancing and expectations easier but I do wish jobs had a bigger role then 5 abilities (though then the point of going just as a class is reduced a bit).

Wouldnt have minded a more FF tactic/FF XI approach where the new job starts at level 1. Then you could maintain the use of using just a class or a job - and easier introduce of class specific weapons.

if they changed it to 1 ability every 7 lvls you would have 7 at 49 instead of 5 at 50 which i think would really help job roles more then 5 ability's(some of which being very situational)

[Elexia]

in some interview yoshi said he had an idea for dark knight to branch of pld, but if you choose dark knight not being able to go back to pld. He also said dont worry, its just a thought he was toying with or w/e and not to panic. Anyway, i like the idea of an advanced job that would eliminate the use of another job (but prob wont happen cause people will cry to much about having to make a decision that they will have to live with for the rest of the game)

Yep. It's funny how people who say those with realistic...err "PESSIMISTIC" thought processes are the ones who will ruin ARR, when its those who will cry about stuff like this that are more likely to prevent anything halfway decent from popping up in the game.

Realistically if people will bitch, just slap in a GSD or Scythe used in battle (XI style Death Scythes) and make it the first standalone Job >.>
Yes it's an MMO, yes you should have "free reign on whatever the fuck you want" but ffs, there's a reason the original DRK story (that was actually a story) had cecil atone to become a Paladin and not able to do both. They're two paths of the same blade, one for "righteousness" and the other for generally "things a normal person wouldn't be able to do."

Having an ultimate choice even in a game where you can be "whatever you want" is what FF is all about since it does have effects on certain outcomes. Do you open every chest you see? Or do you save certain ones for an ultimate prize at the end? (XII for example) Do you give marlene the flower, or do you give tifa the flower? So on so forth.

[Fadigre]

Perhaps in other games

But doesn't XIV run on the concept of one character to experience everything?

[Shougun]

Yep. It's funny how people who say those with realistic...err "PESSIMISTIC" thought processes are the ones who will ruin ARR, when its those who will cry about stuff like this that are more likely to prevent anything halfway decent from popping up in the game.

Realistically if people will bitch, just slap in a GSD or Scythe used in battle (XI style Death Scythes) and make it the first standalone Job >.>
Yes it's an MMO, yes you should have "free reign on whatever the fuck you want" but ffs, there's a reason the original DRK story (that was actually a story) had cecil atone to become a Paladin and not able to do both. They're two paths of the same blade, one for "righteousness" and the other for generally "things a normal person wouldn't be able to do."

Having an ultimate choice even in a game where you can be "whatever you want" is what FF is all about since it does have effects on certain outcomes. Do you open every chest you see? Or do you save certain ones for an ultimate prize at the end? (XII for example) Do you give marlene the flower, or do you give tifa the flower? So on so forth.

That chest thing in XII was so lame lol. Restarted my game 20 hours in after reading a comment on the internet XD

Also Cecil didnt sacerfice much becoming a PLD - who did epic damage. Though if they were to make similar "pros" through different methods that could be interesting. Like DRK and PLD can both tank and dps but they do it through different styles.

I wouldn't recommend creating a system that creates impossible play points though (DRK is best dps, PLD is best tank - you can only ever have one, go cry). SE would have to "hardcore" many other aspects of the game to encourage this environment. As it is now the feeling is that everyone can do everything. If you want that not to be true - then early FFXI was going the right direction lol.

[syntaxlies]

Perhaps in other games

But doesn't XIV run on the concept of one character to experience everything?

well in my example to be a dark knight you would first have to experience pld, so you would get everything. I wouldn't even mind if they added some quest for going back to being a pld but then erasing all progress towards dark knight. People in this game are so afraid of making a wrong decision that they want all decisions removed from game.

[Elexia]

I wouldn't recommend creating a system that creates impossible play points though (DRK is best dps, PLD is best tank - you can only ever have one, go cry). SE would have to "hardcore" many other aspects of the game to encourage this environment. As it is now the feeling is that everyone can do everything. If you want that not to be true - then early FFXI was going the right direction lol.

Yep, they wouldn't have to change too much, but the issue mostly manifested in the fact people stacked a certain class on everything which in turn made everything:

"Level BLM or gtfo FFXIV."

Even if you like a certain class, you were stuck leveling BLM even in a lot of the end-game shells:

"You can be whatever you want but you are REQUIRED to have BLM as one of your 50s."

Why the requirement if you're free to experience everything? When they have 24 man content which hopefully makes up the majority of end-game content, we'll probably see the system flow better but in it's current form, it really screwed up the concept XI laid forth lol. This is why an ultimate choice could work more in ARR than it would have in 1.0, due to the alliance system making a return, since in XI, Voidwatch you would stack DD, but you'd actually get everyone involved simply due to weakness targeting.

People in this game are so afraid of making a wrong decision that they want all decisions removed from game.

This, look at Ifrit hard..everyone used to stack Lancers on it then all of a sudden it became impossible to do for the general playerbase without stacking THM/BLM on it. Garuda was also another BLM stack fight..so realistically, the system lets you be whatever you want, but the playerbase says otherwise.

[Shougun]

- general response to -

Well the idea of sacrifice(oh noez) is a bit foreign to the world of FFXIV, even FFXI to an extent (it's/was hardcore but not much sacrifice). In order to foster an environment where the system feels at place you would have to add these elements into other parts of the system. Its not like a new game or anything but you'd have to take your paper and change the fold lines a little - otherwise it's "tacked" on.

Like adding jump but not being able to do anything with it because they got freaky with the invisible walls.

[Orophin]

That's kinda wrong PLD was DD/Tank/Healer in most of the games. Dark could tank well in Ff it has been in games they had really high def.

PLD are only tanks in the mmo worlds usually pld and dark are the same kinda in the Ff world hell even in FF 11 PLD str was one the highest in the game >.>

Both have high str

both have great def

and both used swords

I really miss the concept of Paladin from FF4. Cecil was frickin badass as he got higher level and got better weapons. For some reason the MMO world seems to think that Paladin can't do good damage and tank at the same time.

Adding a secondary weapon to classes would mean that it'll be more difficult for SE to come up with other classes as the weapon choices would fall rapidly. I don't think they'll do it (I hope they don't) since they want people to spend time levelling with as many jobs as possible.

I'm curious to know what direction they take with classes and jobs in ARR, but initially when they announced jobs I was hoping that they'd implement class/job specific weapon types. Example: Gladiator can use swords, but once you unlocked Paladin, they would be restricted to Holy Swords. Doing this would make it so classes can branch off and each job could have their own weapon, opposed to now having three classes that use the same weapon type. Now you have Gladiators that can use generic sword types, Paladins can use Holy Swords, and now the new Dark Knight job can use Scythes or Great Swords.

The only problems with doing this are:

1. You'd have to create more assets since you'd need different weapons for each class/job.

2. The fundamental system around job stones would have to be changed since you equip a weapon, then use the job stone to change from class to job. With the new weapons, if you had the appropriate job unlocked and at the correct level, you could simply equip the weapon to directly turn into that job.

I don't know if SE would want to change their design philosophy for classes/jobs to that extent. As long as the game mechanics are smart enough to know that PLD/DRK still draw x amount of abilities from their base class of Gladiator, it really shouldn't be a problem. It would just come down to whether they want to implement that many more new items or not.

Obviously this is a design choice that would have to be decided upon before ARR launches, since in 1.0 the job stones were tied directly to the job quests themselves. It's all well and good if the system changed now opposed to later on since it'd create some huge inconsistencies with the job quests. So unless they've made some drastic changes to the Armory system, fundamentally I think we're stuck with what we have now.

[Reika]

Problem with DRK ever coming off of GLD no matter what weapons they allow gld to use is that GLD's traits and skills are primarily defensive and +agro. It wouldn't work for DD, it would end up being defensive. Flash, Sentinel, Shield skills, etc. Would take some major reworking of class skills and traits, as well as kill more of the lore of GLD (designed for 1h swords and shields). You can give gld a 2h sword to wield, but its traits and skills wont change, else it is no longer a gld.

They'd be better off just making a new class for DRK DD, Greatsword or whatever. OR they would have to do something like this:

GLD will eventually have ~70 skills and ~25 traits at lvl50. Many can only be used by Paladin, Many others only by Dark Knight, and Some others only the Class can use. So instead of job quests unlocking ALL the spells and abilites for the job (which was stupid) many are gained by lvling up and will effectively allow the Gladiator class to be either offensive or defensive depending on what skills you use on it. Switching to PLD will make you mostly defensive, switching to DRK wil make you mostly offensive.

But if they dont do that, gld -> Drk = tank.

[Blackpearlguy]

The funny fact of 11 was Ninja was never intended to be a tank job. The dev even went so far to make it... what was it lose hate the more you cast utsemi or every shadow absorbed made you lose hate. Samurai was suppose to be the DD tank job.

I personally HATED ninjas as tanks as my Drk they could never hold hate off of me i would pull hate from ninjas missing. Me wiffing was able to pull hate off of most/pretty much all ninjas.

I agree with most of this post however around 2005 in XI they really nerfed NIN (same time as RNG if memory serves correct) as a tank in almost everything (save the occasional kite). Before that however NIN was over powered as a tank and preferred for many high tier NMs (At the time, ex: Byakko). All based off personal experience of course, and as I also played DRK pulling hate was almost inevitable if not managed correctly.

If we're not going to see DRK as another playing class, are we happy with mainly PLD as the "main" tank with WAR acting as your next best option?