SE stop doing the "norm"

[xXHalloweenTrixXx]

What I miss mostly from FF11 was the necessity of leveling parties even within the low levels. It really allowed people to branch out of their little cliques and linkshells and seek out other players, which made the community feel a bit more lively.

Also it allowed people to learn their roles in parties. FF14 really doesn't do that in its current state, you pretty much get plvled up to 45, and possible to do leves up to 50 solo.

[VitoScaletta]

if they never allowed PL'ing in the first place i think this game wouldve at least had a lot more life to it.

[Gramul]

When people say use XI as a base, they don't exactly mean to copy it altogether. Look at binding of Isaac. It uses Zelda 1 as a base, but expands on it and changes some things up to be something orriginal.

[Gokulo]

Binding on Isaac is more based on traditional roguelike games I'd say.

[TomCarroll]

What I miss mostly from FF11 was the necessity of leveling parties even within the low levels. It really allowed people to branch out of their little cliques and linkshells and seek out other players, which made the community feel a bit more lively.

Also it allowed people to learn their roles in parties. FF14 really doesn't do that in its current state, you pretty much get plvled up to 45, and possible to do leves up to 50 solo.

Total and utter BS.

Leveling groups and groups in endgame were like night and day for certain jobs. Tanking in particular was completely different.

When you force people to level in groups, people are forced to wait for invites and sit around idle with a party flag on. Now, having said that, if you want to do that, it'd be great if they wanted to add that as a viable leveling option.

[Elexia]

When you force people to level in groups, people are forced to wait for invites and sit around idle with a party flag on.

You know, if you want to get into night and day scenarios the fact I started my own parties for every job I leveled in XI I had no troubles getting parties going compared to if I sat around and waited for everything to come me was definitely night and day...so the whole "sit around and wait" problem isn't exactly a design issue, that's a player problem.

Do you think endgame shells just magicked out of nowhere?

[Rokien]

Total and utter BS.

Leveling groups and groups in endgame were like night and day for certain jobs. Tanking in particular was completely different.

When you force people to level in groups, people are forced to wait for invites and sit around idle with a party flag on. Now, having said that, if you want to do that, it'd be great if they wanted to add that as a viable leveling option.

Let me tell you how long I waited for a party as thief, 5 hours was the longest time, BUT I didn't just SIT THERE AND DO NOTHING, I went afk did some house work, or I went farming or some random quest. Also 99% of the time, I made my own parties, which I only had to wait 30 or so mins. I'm sorry, but I like force grouping, this is an mmo, I don't want a single player game with multiplayer aspects.

[KiriA500]

Let me tell you how long I waited for a party as thief, 5 hours was the longest time, BUT I didn't just SIT THERE AND DO NOTHING, I went afk did some house work, or I went farming or some random quest. Also 99% of the time, I made my own parties, which I only had to wait 30 or so mins. I'm sorry, but I like force grouping, this is an mmo, I don't want a single player game with multiplayer aspects.

I like how the idea here is that long wait times for parties aren't an issue because you didn't always have to deal with it. Yes, obviously, not everybody is going to hang around for 5 hours to level a job they want. That still doesn't cover up that REQUIRING parties to level up is a problem. Final Fantasy XI suffered from a problem where you would miss a "wave" of players, especially after expansions like Chains of Promathia. If you didn't happen to be leveling a job in a specific level range, you would miss the big wave of players leveling. Because of this, you would have a smaller number of people to group with, thus slowing down your progression.

It's fine if you want to do this, but don't make it a requirement. The best thing World of Warcraft did was break this mentality that leveling up should be a huge mountain you need to overcome. This doesn't have to come through doing quests (which I have no problem with, it gets you to see the world instead of standing in one spot for hours)...it just involves not making leveling up a tedious chore. I'm sorry that you feel it's the most important aspect of this game, because there's no reason it should take a long time.

Also it allowed people to learn their roles in parties. FF14 really doesn't do that in its current state, you pretty much get plvled up to 45, and possible to do leves up to 50 solo.

So sick of this argument. Power leveling existed in Final Fantasy XI as well, so people still didn't learn their job. Yes, it's easier to do in XIV...but it's a moot point. It was worse in XI because you'd have people with subpar skills.

[RudyFails]

because there's no reason it should take a long time.

'

Oh yea... This guy gave a few.

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

[KiriA500]

Oh yea... This guy gave a few.

I disagree with those. Boom, democracy. Having stuff take longer just for the sake of it taking longer is awful game design.