SE stop doing the "norm"

[RudyFails]

because there's no reason it should take a long time.

'

Oh yea... This guy gave a few.

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

[KiriA500]

Oh yea... This guy gave a few.

I disagree with those. Boom, democracy. Having stuff take longer just for the sake of it taking longer is awful game design.

[Rokien]

I disagree with those. Boom, democracy. Having stuff take longer just for the sake of it taking longer is awful game design.

It is? So you are saying that it should take a day to get a relic? Or level 50 in a day? Why extand that even past one hour heck one minute! There is no need for you to take longer than it should.

Seriously, how long should something take? Because longer than a second is extending it just for the sake of it.

[KiriA500]

It is? So you are saying that it should take a day to get a relic? Or level 50 in a day? Why extand that even past one hour heck one minute! There is no need for you to take longer than it should.

Seriously, how long should something take? Because longer than a second is extending it just for the sake of it.

HEY EVERYBODY! LOOK AT ME! I'M EXAGGERATING!!!

I'm just getting at that the fact that leveling up shouldn't be seen as the meat of game content. If you remove power leveling from the current version, I feel the progress from level 1 to 50 using leves is a proper time frame to level up.

[Rokien]

HEY EVERYBODY! LOOK AT ME! I'M EXAGGERATING!!!

I'm just getting at that the fact that leveling up shouldn't be seen as the meat of game content. If you remove power leveling from the current version, I feel the progress from level 1 to 50 using leves is a proper time frame to level up.

That's just an opinion to me it's still super fast, why the rush to end game? Seriously there is no adventure in that. I see it as a journey, not a grind, a journey should last a long time, not a week.

[KiriA500]

That's just an opinion to me it's still super fast, why the rush to end game? Seriously there is no adventure in that. I see it as a journey, not a grind, a journey should last a long time, not a week.

It's just my opinion. You as a player are allowed to take longer if you want. I don't really see why people who don't feel the need to make a career out of leveling one class should be forced into a slower pace just because you don't like it.

[Ruisu]

That's just an opinion to me it's still super fast, why the rush to end game? Seriously there is no adventure in that. I see it as a journey, not a grind, a journey should last a long time, not a week.

Because you're supposed to level multiple jobs to not be a useless sack of shit. It's one of those Tanaka ideas that never left, kinda like the Market Wards.

Combine levelling 3 or 4 classes to 50. That's about double the average MMO levelling rate. Oh, let's not forget the inevitable level caps. So anyone with all 7 (soon to be 8) jobs at 50 now need to get them to 60! And usually the levelling curves from a level cap increase are incredibly steep. So your argument is flawed.

[Ladon]

HEY EVERYBODY! LOOK AT ME! I'M EXAGGERATING!!!

I'm just getting at that the fact that leveling up shouldn't be seen as the meat of game content. If you remove power leveling from the current version, I feel the progress from level 1 to 50 using leves is a proper time frame to level up.

No leveling up SHOULD exactly be the meat of the game. There is no point in even having the system if it's just an obstacle to get to the majority of the content. This idea that the game starts at the level cap is the absolutely worst trend in the MMO market.

As it stands now all the sub 50 content, items, areas, etc are pointless and they'll remain pointless if people just blow through levels before any of it can be enjoyed. Just look at itemization as a great example of whats wrong. Most people don't even buy most of the sub 50 gear because they'll blow through the levels it would be used in anyway.

[Lirion]

It is? So you are saying that it should take a day to get a relic? Or level 50 in a day? Why extand that even past one hour heck one minute! There is no need for you to take longer than it should.

Seriously, how long should something take? Because longer than a second is extending it just for the sake of it.

Hyperbole much? Who is saying that it should take a day to get relic or take a day to get to max level? People are saying some stuff should not require a party, levelling your character should not require a party. If I have one hour to play and want to to level my character I should not be required to spend 20-30 min to create a party, then get to the camp to finally start levelling for the 20 min I have left. Of course partying in groups should also be an option, but this forced partying for everything mentality is a relic of the old and I'm glad Yoshi know this.

Primals, raids, end game stuff, epic gear quests, those things should require a party. I should not have to depend on others just to progress my character.

[Starlord]

I disagree with those. Boom, democracy. Having stuff take longer just for the sake of it taking longer is awful game design.

Yeah I know, FFXI was great for it's time, but taking hours upon hours "just to get into a party even" is just tedious and boring, I'm assuming that's why they double the max exp per kill (not abyssea) from 200 to 400 on first kill. That's why having "Soloable" content, when you don't have that kind of hours to play is a very good thing to have. I do agree that, FFXIV ARR needs to have a good amount of content, @ launch to hold us over till first patch of ARR. Needs a Balance of Solo/Duo and Full party Quest/missions.

If they can balance that out, then things will look good.

No leveling up SHOULD exactly be the meat of the game.

If leveling up was the core mechanic (meat) of the game, Then what exactly is everything else then Rice and beans? Leveling up is a "process" that take either little or a lot of time, depending on the vision of the game and how it's made. Leveling is what you do along the way, I don't consider that meat, if it was... it would get very boring after awhile, if there wasn't other meat to eat :P.

Content to me should be the meat and potatoes of any game, If all you had was leveling then the game wouldn't make it very far at all.

I should not have to depend on others just to progress my character.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. Bravo!