Lets Talk - Red Mage

[Ikkenoe]

i don't like the idea of red mage being a carbon copy of ffxi.
red mage always been a jack of all trades, curing and nuking at same times, but not forget it's also more melee oriented , equipping heavier armors an swords. Since we're getting jobs more in old ff fashion (blm and whm have a nuke distribution very similar to ffI) you should ask to yourseves if you wold like a melee mage instead asking ffxi's red mage

i don't like the idea of people who don't understand class balance asking for a front line caster with all the perks of melee damage and survivability in the context of an MMO- especially when PVP is going to be involved.

yes, red mage was this or that in *offline jrpgs* where balance isn't really a problem and there was no pvp, but this is a whole different ball game. and who in this thread has asked for it to be a carbon copy of anything? nobody has. it was only presented that xi rdm was an extraordinarily powerful and versatile class, far from the "failure" people try to make it out to be in light of their own heavily evident biases.

but surely then the answer is to ask for it to be a carbon copy of non-xi rdms? lol

but sure, okay, let's say you get what you want and you get a magic fencer in front line armor. enjoy waiting 2-3 years for that, because we already HAVE an imbalance in front line vs. back line jobs, which is the primary reason they're pushing arcanist/summoner to the front of the new jobs pack.

[Ingolf]

They could always push into the whole fast cast thing again, I think that was a really cool perk to RDM that kinda reflected back to the dual cast of FFV.

I mean even dual cast with some tweaks would be pretty cool. In GW2 (hear me out) Mesmers have things called mantras:

Mantras are a category of skill that have two phases. The mesmer first activates the mantra, which has a long cast time (3 seconds in developer-given examples) and replaces that skill slot with an instant-casting skill that can be used twice before recharging. Mantras are powerful because many can be charged up before battle and then used in the middle of another spell, without interrupting that spell.

I think some spells like this for RDM would be cool.

I wouldn't mind swords for RDM, but they'd have to be primarily a backline job, I don't want yet another front line class. Again, something GW2 does is let mesmers summon illusions of itself that stay in the front line whilst the mesmer hangs out in the backline doling out damage and support.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

i don't like the idea of people who don't understand class balance asking for a front line caster with all the perks of melee damage and survivability in the context of an MMO- especially when PVP is going to be involved.

yes, red mage was this or that in *offline jrpgs* where balance isn't really a problem and there was no pvp, but this is a whole different ball game. and who in this thread has asked for it to be a carbon copy of anything? nobody has. it was only presented that xi rdm was an extraordinarily powerful and versatile class, far from the "failure" people try to make it out to be in light of their own heavily evident biases.

but surely then the answer is to ask for it to be a carbon copy of non-xi rdms? lol

but sure, okay, let's say you get what you want and you get a magic fencer in front line armor. enjoy waiting 2-3 years for that, because we already HAVE an imbalance in front line vs. back line jobs, which is the primary reason they're pushing arcanist/summoner to the front of the new jobs pack.

i don't understand you. The imbalance to you is the number of melee class vs ranged classes ? And so?
Since you mention pvp (not speaking of the "survivability problem" in pve for melee caster...as nothing else already have similar classes) , an imbalance would be a mage destroying every melee 1 miles away, not the fact the game have x melee and y mage
The game obliusly need more mage classes, but that's not because melee die more often :|

[Azurus]

I want to see a red mage that's radically different than xi. I want it to be a fast attacking rapier class that uses enhancing magic like en-spells, haste, and offensive magic combos off of weapon skills.

It can also have debuffs like slow, bio, gravity and other debuffs attached to weapon skills. But I want them to be rapier based above everything. Red mages do not belong in the back

[Warlock]

You want RDM? lvl up Gladiator get full red cobalt set equip stone from CNJ and thunder from THM and BAM!

[fusional]

I want to see a red mage that's radically different than xi. I want it to be a fast attacking rapier class that uses enhancing magic like en-spells, haste, and offensive magic combos off of weapon skills.

It can also have debuffs like slow, bio, gravity and other debuffs attached to weapon skills. But I want them to be rapier based above everything. Red mages do not belong in the back

"i want to see an overpowered frontline blm" is all i'm getting from this

Ikkenoe has a point. how do you people plan to balance this class if it works the way you want it to?

They could always push into the whole fast cast thing again, I think that was a really cool perk to RDM that kinda reflected back to the dual cast of FFV.

yeah, fast cast was good. though i remember reading some interview a while back where yoshi stated there won't be any haste-like mechanics in the game? but maybe (hopefully) he's changed his mind or was just talking about 1.0

[Azurus]

"i want to see an overpowered frontline blm" is all i'm getting from this

Ikkenoe has a point. how do you people plan to balance this class if it works the way you want it to?



yeah, fast cast was good. though i remember reading some interview a while back where yoshi stated there won't be any haste-like mechanics in the game? but maybe (hopefully) he's changed his mind or was just talking about 1.0

Um the black magic won't be near as strong as a blm? It's just weaker magic that can be woven in to rapier combos? It can be a front line enhancement specialist? Monk like medium armor but not have the evasion monk has?

You guys really can't think outside the box can you? And why ate we even thinking about PvP? Its not going to be major in this game at all. He'll rift managed to balance their new harbinger class (frontline mage type) why can't SE? Especially with an iconic class like redmage? You naysayers oversimplify everything and don't bother thinking about how it COULD work.

[Ikkenoe]

i don't understand you. The imbalance to you is the number of melee class vs ranged classes ? And so?
Since you mention pvp (not speaking of the "survivability problem" in pve for melee caster...as nothing else already have similar classes) , an imbalance would be a mage destroying every melee 1 miles away, not the fact the game have x melee and y mage
The game obliusly need more mage classes, but that's not because melee die more often :|

i'm clearly referring to imbalance in class type/number and overall class balance in terms of how they function as two separate things, and i think that's pretty obvious. don't be a homer.

but with rdm you'd have a class that can enfeeble and nuke from afar and still be able to survive in melee range. that destroys balance. melee beat casters if they can get close, casters beat melee if they can stay ranged. rdm would be able to freely switch between the two while CC'ing foes in the process and that spells disaster for fair play in pvp. anyone who has done even a fair amount of decent pvp in MMOs should understand how this is potentially a really big problem.

either that, or rdm would get eaten alive by melee and ranged alike. either scenario would have the forums (ESPECIALLY these forums) overloaded with crying

[yukikaze_yanagi]

nothing forbid a class mechanism where you can cast only when meleeing,or other downside, it's not talking about "oh look, i can nuke afar while i'm more armored then a paladin".
The most oblius example of this mechanic is the war priest in warhammer: to cast he need to build energy, which you build only meleeing. and it's a healer

[fusional]

Um the black magic won't be near as strong as a blm? It's just weaker magic that can be woven in to rapier combos? It can be a front line enhancement specialist? Monk like medium armor but not have the evasion monk has?

You guys really can't think outside the box can you? And why ate we even thinking about PvP? Its not going to be major in this game at all. He'll rift managed to balance their new harbinger class (frontline mage type) why can't SE? Especially with an iconic class like redmage? You naysayers oversimplify everything and don't bother thinking about how it COULD work.

don't worry about pvp? why? because *you* don't care for it? don't be childish.

and okay, so you want to have debuffs/CC and perfectly strong melee at the cost of weaker magic, and you still don't see how this would be overpowered? list any debuffs melee currently have which actually have a major impact on the game. i'll wait. in the meantime let's talk about how many situations monk's 'evasion' ever matters in pve. so... yeah. taking that away from rdm isn't exactly hurting it.

you can cry about 'thinking outside the box' all you want but that still won't solve balance issues. see, in marketing they have tons of idea guys and one or two strategy guys who tell the idea guys whether or not that idea is good/possible or stupid/impossible in practice. i'm a strategy guy, and i'm trying to explain to you why your idea in its current form is simply unrealistic. it's not feasible. so i'm asking you to tweak it. and your response, rather than to answer a question i've posed, is to try taking the "pfffttt ur dum cant think outside da box" route? classy.

but here, let me help.

so we have a melee job which specializes in single target dps, excelling in short fights and against magic-weak foes. that's monk.

we have a melee job which does great single target and great aoe dps, excelling in longer battles. that's dragoon.

we have a melee job which does mediocre single target and good-to-great aoe dps, less squishy than other melee and excelling as an offtank. that's warrior.

we have a melee job which does poor damage but has high survivability and high threat. that's paladin.

we have a ranged job which does decent single target and good aoe dps, but makes up for this with range and support skills. bard.

we have a ranged job which does excellent single target and aoe dps as magic, but is limited by mp. black mage.

and we have a ranged job which does mediocre single target and aoe dps, but is a strong healer/buffer. white mage.

do you understand how class balance works yet? do you see how each of these classes do something slightly different from the others, specializing in different roles and excelling in different situations? so tell me where you see red mage fitting in with this picture while retaining balance in relation to the other classes and also having its own identity.

i'm all ears.

because about the only things i can see working are:

A. make it like xi with mediocre melee and magic damage, but strong buff/debuff/support abilities
B. give it fair single target damage with good aoe damage and fair buff/debuff abilities
C. give it good single target damage with mediocre aoe damage and fair buff/debuff abilities

you can't have 2 out of 3 being strong or the class breaks balance. unless you want the buffs/debuffs to be weak. but even then you still can't have it matching blm in magic damage or mnk/drg in melee damage- because it would still have things those classes do not.

understand better now?

so how do you plan on resolving that problem?

tip: try thinking of this from a disinterested, objective third party perspective rather than a "i like red mage and i want it to be like so and so" perspective