If SE is taking away my hard work...

[AzuraSin]

These forums in general confuse me, NoctisUmbra, since there is such a thing as too much transparency ... but seeing as my at-launch friends have told me the game used to be nigh unplayable I can understand a certain amount of entitlement. I guess maybe it's just crossing a threshold with this money thing.

I guess I'm in a unique position; the more I think about it, the more I consider that about 90% of the money I spend these days goes toward making money anyway. So maybe I've just convinced myself that it's not affecting me in the slightest.

Then again, if our PCs needed to pay for food/water/shelter or would die, we could argue about the severity of the impact of lost gil. Since none of that applies, and having gil (therefore being able to buy materials and/or better gear rather than farm for/earn it) is about as close to a convenience factor as you can get. For folks who have put in that farming/earning for a couple years and think their nest egg is being stolen from them, I get it. Just no way to convince them that's not the case.

[viion]

@viion
Thanks, trying to keep it civil ^^

I just think a lot of people are looking at this through the lens of "if there were to be a re-domination and nothing else changed," which is invalid. Tons of things are changing, and I believe the re-denomination is a result rather than a driver of those changes. Change is a healthy thing, but you always have folks who will resist it.

TBH I haven't been playing as long as most of you, but I have found some lucrative ways to make gil and have a decent operating budget. These methods include everything from farming to gathering to crafting, all of which rely on the Market Wards to sell to other PCs. For people who only focus on farming and ditch gathering/crafting altogether, I have no sympathy. I know people who are consistently broke (and complain about it) and yet even when handed an opportunity to make money they scoff and refuse to put in the effort.

I get that people don't want their money taken away from them. I guess I just feel like I'm going to have to make new money anyway, so why have a nervous breakdown about it?

There are people who will be nervous, scared and not like what is going on about it. There is nothing wrong with that, its like saying "Why ya'll so angry about politics?" Thats just how people feel about things. People should be allowed to express those feelings, its one of the reasons we have a forum.

I completely agree with you that this change his a healthy thing, I agree that it has to be done, I am happy it is happening, I think though, I think it is happening for other reasons that what is being told to us. Reasons aside, it will benefit the economy very well.

To your second post, if I worked for 2 years to get 30m to get pre relic. And over night that pre relic went to 60m, I'd be pretty annoyed. i worked hard to earn what was achievable and overnight only be 50% the way there. And so I will have to go back, put effort in, earn more gil, to reach the value at whatever it is when I am equal and have enough. The drastic concern is if this happens to every single item. If you have 30m now but every single item increases, over night, by 100% to double, you are half as wealthy as what you could purchase not so long ago, this is factored on the case of all, every, item being affected.

If all items go down to 1/10th or less, but maybe 1-2 stay high because of demand, I've lost my argument because general pricing equalised.

[Shougun]

These forums in general confuse me, NoctisUmbra, since there is such a thing as too much transparency ... but seeing as my at-launch friends have told me the game used to be nigh unplayable I can understand a certain amount of entitlement. I guess maybe it's just crossing a threshold with this money thing.

I guess I'm in a unique position; the more I think about it, the more I consider that about 90% of the money I spend these days goes toward making money anyway. So maybe I've just convinced myself that it's not affecting me in the slightest.

Then again, if our PCs needed to pay for food/water/shelter or would die, we could argue about the severity of the impact of lost gil. Since none of that applies, and having gil (therefore being able to buy materials and/or better gear rather than farm for/earn it) is about as close to a convenience factor as you can get. For folks who have put in that farming/earning for a couple years and think their nest egg is being stolen from them, I get it. Just no way to convince them that's not the case.

The honest (fairly logical break down):

It will affect you for the first while, people will put a lot of items above 1/10 their original cost. People will buy those items, but those will be people wasting their money. Once players start producing items (gathering, killing, making) people will start to undercut each other, people will undercut each other till equilibrium. The real point will rubber band above and below equilibrium, however the price WILL , WILL , reach to that rubber band point. Just like it has in 1.0 currently (you can watch a price bounce between a very consistent range).

However whenever SE adds or changes content price changes will always occur, like when new expansions are added they usually sell for 100X more or less then what they should - this equals out over time.

Even if SE didnt do this 1/10 thing we would still have economic unstability for the first month or so as content has changed in difficulty and reward (some items better or worse, easier/harder, new/better).

Will there be something different ? Yes.

In the long run however it wont matter, the economy will be the economy and only the size of the number and not the power of the number has been effected (specially since gil is the only currency in this game).


Its not worth talking about really. But I can understand some people feel cheated - but those people either a) dont understand it doesnt matter, or b) will always be the people that feel cheated at anything SE does, like adding new content that makes their gear no longer the best. (Which they will do, and have to do in order to keep the MMO going)

[viion]

The honest (fairly logical break down):

It will affect you for the first while, people will put a lot of items above 1/10 their original cost. People will buy those items, but those will be people wasting their money. Once players start producing items (gathering, killing, making) people will start to undercut each other, people will undercut each other till equilibrium. The real point will rubber band above and below equilibrium, however the price WILL , WILL , reach to that rubber band point. Just like it has in 1.0 currently (you can watch a price bounce between a very consistent range).

However whenever SE adds or changes content price changes will always occur, like when new expansions are added they usually sell for 100X more or less then what they should - this equals out over time.

Even if SE didnt do this 1/10 thing we would still have economic unstability for the first month or so as content has changed in difficulty and reward (some items better or worse, easier/harder, new/better).

Will there be something different ? Yes.

In the long run however it wont matter, the economy will be the economy and only the size of the number and not the power of the number has been effected (specially since gil is the only currency in this game).


Its not worth talking about really. But I can understand some people feel cheated - but those people either a) dont understand it doesnt matter, or b) will always be the people that feel cheated at anything SE does, like adding new content that makes their gear no longer the best. (Which they will do, and have to do in order to keep the MMO going)

Very valid, but that price the item will reach to, that "rubber band point", may not be 1/10th ever, even after 10 years it may never reach that reduction. If all prices drop to 2/10ths and get to this over a period of 1 year and stay for 10 years like this, you are losing out because they are twice as expensive now. This is how we understand it. We are also not wrong to have this opinion or expectation.

[Shougun]

Very valid, but that price the item will reach to, that "rubber band point", may not be 1/10th ever, even after 10 years it may never reach that reduction. If all prices drop to 2/10ths and get to this over a period of 1 year and stay for 10 years like this, you are losing out because they are twice as expensive now. This is how we understand it. We are also not wrong to have this opinion or expectation.

True, but then when you sell the item for that price, and someone buys it, and then they sell it, and everything is situated around these new prices. It still doesnt matter.

SE may change what makes money - like when they make materia suck ass. But the economy will be fine, specially since we will have a server that will mostly be just us oldies. We will all come in with proportionately the same amount of money. How we continue to make money will change - so therefore the items will not all be 1/10th (nor do they have to be) but the market itself will be regular.

To expect 2.0's market to be exactly like 1.0's is a major flaw. Indeed the value of some your items will be lesser. So people buying out large portions of items may be sorely shocked in 2.0. Or happily surprised. But the "weight" of our gil hasnt changed.

Edit: As Almalexia below me states. This isnt exactly the redenomination. The value of an item will be changing in 2.0, that is not the value of your gil however. We will have the same inflow of gil (gil being created by npcs, monsters and other money printers). If the value of EVERY item is unchanged, then all items will be exactly 1/10 the price in the long run. But items wont be the same value, different subjects coming into the same pot.

[Almalexia]

Very valid, but that price the item will reach to, that "rubber band point", may not be 1/10th ever, even after 10 years it may never reach that reduction. If all prices drop to 2/10ths and get to this over a period of 1 year and stay for 10 years like this, you are losing out because they are twice as expensive now. This is how we understand it. We are also not wrong to have this opinion or expectation.

You are mistaken if you blame this on redenomination, though.

[AzuraSin]

Very valid, but that price the item will reach to, that "rubber band point", may not be 1/10th ever, even after 10 years it may never reach that reduction. If all prices drop to 2/10ths and get to this over a period of 1 year and stay for 10 years like this, you are losing out because they are twice as expensive now. This is how we understand it. We are also not wrong to have this opinion or expectation.

You're right if all prices drop to 1/5th instead of 1/10th. However, since we're pulling numbers out of the air here, what if they drop to 1/20th or 1/50th? In your hypothetical scenario a net loss is just as likely as a net gain isn't it?

[viion]

True, but then when you sell the item for that price, and someone buys it, and then they sell it, and everything is situated around these new prices. It still doesnt matter.

SE may change what makes money - like when they make materia suck ass. But the economy will be fine, specially since we will have a server that will mostly be just us oldies. We will all come in with proportionately the same amount of money. How we continue to make money will change - so therefore the items will not all be 1/10th (nor do they have to be) but the market itself will be regular.

To expect 2.0's market to be exactly like 1.0's is a major flaw. Indeed the value of some your items will be lesser. So people buying out large portions of items may be sorely shocked in 2.0. Or happily surprised. But the "weight" of our gil hasnt changed.

It does matter, because say I have 10m, I bought item at 10m, in ARR guy has 10m but ends up with 1m. Then I sell and successfully sell at 3m, and several others do. I have been been able to enter ARR with 3m. The 1m guy cant even buy the item and will have to work for another 2m in order to do so. The guy who bought for 3m, is silly in first place, I am lucky to retainer some of my money back and the guy trying to get the item is out of luck until he earns more.

That means that 1m guy's 1m gil is not as much value was it was before, the weight of gil has changed.

You are mistaken if you blame this on redenomination, though.

I am blaming it on this whole situation. if you want to state the mistake is because of no price history, then thats your argument, I don't believe this will be the case. Many Ward resets have proven this isn't the case really and that items end up back at their original price even with no history.

You're right if all prices drop to 1/5th instead of 1/10th. However, since we're pulling numbers out of the air here, what if they drop to 1/20th or 1/50th? In your hypothetical scenario a net loss is just as likely as a net gain isn't it?

Yes it is as likely, and it can happen, I never once said it could not. I don't think it will, I think there will be a net loss, but there is also the possible of a massive net gain, with many many items being significantly cheaper now, and there are plenty of suggestions to back this up. I personally, in my opinion, do not think that will happen.

I want to make it very clear, that I am arguing the fact that a global loss can occur and that I think it will. It might not, we might gain or we might equal or we might transform into milkybars. Either situation is plausible. I don't deny they could happen, I don't think they will happen.

It might, and I will be wrong if there is a net gain or net equalise, but I will be very much correct if there is a net loss in the rest of the entries game lifespan.

[Shougun]

It does matter, because say I have 10m, I bought item at 10m, in ARR guy has 10m but ends up with 1m. Then I sell and successfully sell at 3m, and several others do. I have been been able to enter ARR with 3m. The 1m guy cant even buy the item and will have to work for another 2m in order to do so. The guy who bought for 3m, is silly in first place, I am lucky to retainer some of my money back and the guy trying to get the item is out of luck until he earns more.

That means that 1m guy's 1m gil is not as much value was it was before, the weight of gil has changed.



I am blaming it on this whole situation. if you want to state the mistake is because of no price history, then thats your argument, I don't believe this will be the case. Many Ward resets have proven this isn't the case really and that items end up back at their original price even with no history.

SE already said that the value of items will be changing in 2.0. If you are attempting to change your gil currency into an item currency and maintain its gil worth into 2.0, that will be false.

SE "gil will have the same power" [ redenomination ]
SE "items will be changing in 2.0, please dont buy out items in fear" [ rebalancing of gameplay and items ]

The redenomination has no part in the second SE statement. That is a different issue.

[viion]

SE already said that the value of items will be changing in 2.0. If you are attempting to change your gil currency into an item currency and maintain its gil worth into 2.0, that will be false.

SE "gil will have the same power" [ redenomination ]
SE "items will be changing in 2.0, please dont buy out items in fear" [ rebalancing of gameplay and items ]

The redenomination has no part in the second SE statement. That is a different issue.

How do SE judge what value an item is when it is me, the seller and the player, the buyer that decides the value?

If I decide an item is valued at 3m (originally valued at 10m) and a buyer decides that is a fair value, therefore I have maintained 30% of my Gil, where as you maintained 10%. This is not false.