[dev 1026] Petition against proposed claim system and portions of new party system.

[Kazimir]

First let's take a look at the Producer's Letter V poll we seen in march:

If the current target claiming system were done away with, would you be in favor of a system that rewards skill, experience, and loot only to the party that first deals damage to an enemy? Or would you be in favor of skill, experience, and loot being distributed amongst all parties that contributed to an enemy's defeat?

Which led to this:

If the current target claiming system were done away with, would you prefer for content such as dungeons and battle to be converted into instances as much as possible?

Which led to this:

This data is somewhat representative of the response seen to Question 9 data. The people have spoken. As such, we'll be operating under the premise that new PvE content, such as dungeons containing sought-after loot, will be instanced. By instancing content in this way, we'll be able to reduce claim wars and counter-camping and all that.

The problem with this poll is we weren't given any other options. A claiming system where outside parties can attack your mob and take SP/loot from it is a very poor, and very old system. I'm guessing this new claiming system was partly in response to the fact that people don't like the current one. It also seems to be as though it was to accommodate the new party options, but that too wasn't fully what many want, and there's very obvious ways around it.

I also don't believe many of your fans want all future PvE content to be instanced. Dungeons are great but if that's the only future endgame content we'll have I believe you're taking this game into a poor direction. Open world NM's with the type of pop conditions the current one's have are great. They pop very often at various times, which helps prevent claim wars and counter-camping. New areas that are specifically made and filled with NM/HNM endgame content is rather beloved. Both make the world seem more alive.


Here are some pros and cons to the current claim and party system, the proposed system, and what I believe could fix issues with both:

• Current claiming and party system: A party can claim a single mob, or "party" of mobs. No outside party can help fight. SP/EXP/Loot go to said party. Fights can be done with up to 15 people.

Pros:

1. Keeps parties from exploiting the current poor battle system by killing large groups of mobs. (With the easy system right now each member would technically be able to solo yellow/orange/red mobs, providing a drastic increase in SP for all)
   
   
2. Keeps groups from zerging open-world mobs and NM's.
   
   
3. Prevents the "stealing" of SP/exp/loot by outside groups.
   
   
4. Allows for large-scale party play that is needed for endgame LS's, or else people are alienated from content they would like to do.

Cons:

1. Can only claim 1 mob or group of mobs. Causes loss of SP/exp/loot from aggroing mobs.
   
   
2. Large parties of more than 8 make poorly implemented easy content even more boring.

• The alleged system currently under consideration/implementation: Multiple parties can claim. All parties share SP/exp/Loot. Number of mobs allowed to claim stays the same. Parties are decreased to 8 people, some content made for 4. As far as we know alliances are not currently planned.

Pros:

1. Allows for multiple parties to join in massive dungeons.
   
   
2. 8 person groups provides more of a challenge for current poorly implemented content.
   
   
3. Battles with less people seem more engaging to many.

Cons:

1. Allows "stealing" of SP/exp/loot by outside persons and groups. Makes farming in areas with sought-after mob loot difficult. Allows people to SP steal from mobs already being fought. Increases drama of open-world play. Greatly increases drama with open-world NM's.
   
   
2. Allows zerging of all open-world content, NM's included.
   
   
3. Forces developers to make all PvE endgame (and non-endgame) content instanced. Makes for a more boring world. (Biased opinion)
   
   
4. Forces linkshells to become smaller due to their not being enough room for the core group.

• The system I propose you consider for use: Only a single person or party can fight a target(s). Decrease maximum party size to 8. Allow the alliance of 2 parties. The claiming system for instances that are for groups larger than a 2 party alliance can be changed to the claiming system that is currently under consideration only for those instances. Allow groups to claim more than 1 mob at a time.
  

Pros:

1. Prevents "stealing" of SP/exp/loot by outside persons or groups.
   
   
2. Keeps multiple outside groups from zerging open-world content, NM's included.
   
   
3. Provides engaging 8-person battles for dungeon content and easier NM's.
   
   
4. Allows for open-world NM/HNM.
   
   
5. Alliances allow for implementation of harder, engaging content. Allows large-scale HNM fights and dungeons.
   
   
6. Allows for the implementation of massive (more than 2 party alliance) instanced content.
   
   
7. Provides content for those that want larger groups. Allows for LS's to use more members for content.
   
   
8. Provides content for smaller groups. Allows casuals and smaller LS's to partake in various types of endgame content.
   
   
9. Claiming more than 1 mob or group of mobs at a time prevents SP loss from aggroing monsters. Hopefully the upcoming battle changes make for more engaging combat, which would prevent exploitation by killing large amounts of enemies with a single group for SP gain.

Cons:

1. Possibility of griefing by claiming multiple mobs in a low-level area.
   
   
2. Possible exploitation of higher ranks killing multiple mobs at once to level lower ranks. (Can be prevented by removing SP gain in groups with large rank/level gaps.)

*I would prefer for you guys to tell me what is wrong with this system. I will edit them into the con section.*

[Xzen]

I know we might be battling it out in one of the other threads but I'm with you on this one.

[Kazimir]

Is no one else going to give their opinions to an actual constructive post? :/

I guess you're all too busy bickering.

[Xzen]

Is no one else going to give their opinions to an actual constructive post? :/

I guess you're all too busy bickering.

Sorry I don't have anything to add. We're pretty much of the same mind on this topic.

[Reika]

Claiming only needs to be taken away from behests, Guildleves and the soon-to-be dungeons. Field monsters and NM still need claiming.

[Naqaj]

One problem with the proposed system: it doesn't allow ad-hoc cooperative play without formal party forming.
More simply: if I ran past you and see you're struggling with a mob, I can't actually help you kill it.

[Reika]

You can always heal that person fighting it and buff them, unless it is an NM they are fighting.

[BlaiseLallaise]

In general a good idea, though I would suggest a cap on the number of mobs or mob groups that can be claimed at a time. Perhaps 3? Without that cap, or with a cap too large, open world mob zerging could be an issue.

Honestly, I don't think reduced sp for unclaimed mobs is a good solution to the zerging issue. It's like putting a band-aid on a leaky pipe. I wish I could say I had a better solution, but I do not. However, I would say that removing that barrier for instanced content would be a good thing. Actually, that may be all that needs to change for instanced content. Well, that and maybe party alliances.

[Naqaj]

You can always heal that person fighting it and buff them, unless it is an NM they are fighting.

Not an option for non-healers. Also besides the point. A restrictive claim system puts up an artificial barrier that prevents people from just joining up and helping each other. Which becomes especially important once the game moves to the PS3 where people need to be able to interact with each other without having to go through a bunch of menues first to form a party.

A possible alternative to this would be system where joining an ongoing fight simply does not take anything away from the people who "claimed" the mob first. The joining party would need to cross a certain threshold of participation before they become eligible for rewards of any kind. In this case, SP/EXP/items wouldn't be split, but the additional participants would be awarded from a seperate, additional SP/EXP/item pool.

[Xzen]

Not an option for non-healers. Also besides the point. A restrictive claim system puts up an artificial barrier that prevents people from just joining up and helping each other. Which becomes especially important once the game moves to the PS3 where people need to be able to interact with each other without having to go through a bunch of menues first to form a party.

A possible alternative to this would be system where joining an ongoing fight simply does not take anything away from the people who "claimed" the mob first. The joining party would need to cross a certain threshold of participation before they become eligible for rewards of any kind. In this case, SP/EXP/items wouldn't be split, but the additional participants would be awarded from a seperate, additional SP/EXP/item pool.

The system you seem to have in mind sounds like good system but then the looting and sp/xp would need to be awarded the way you have outlined. =)