ARR Gil Cap Reduction

[Claustrum]

If everything would remain the same in 2.0 with just everything gil rewards/npc values/players banks all divided by 10.
Then why change it?
You don't say "Oh everything will remain the same just /10" for no reason, they are changing it for a reason.
To remove gil from the economy.

I'll lose alot of gil but that doesn't bother me.
The new introduction of 2.0 new players is the future of this game.
I wouldn't want any of them to be put off by the difference in wealth between them and older players.

The difference in wealth will be the same. You can think of money as distance. Your income is speed. If you have travelled 100 miles from the start location, you're 100 miles away from anyone who is just now starting. That doesn't change if some guy comes in and says "no, we're changing the units of measure. You're actually just 10 malms away from the start."

So now the new guys are only 10 malms from your current location. But it will take them every bit as long to catch up to you. It matters nothing that 10 is a a smaller number than 100. The distance is not changed. Only the number attached to it.

[darkstarpoet1]

I think your view point is flawed.

Replace the 80 yen with 10 and now reverse the situation so you are coming from Japan to the U.S. That is exactly what is occurring right now in XIV once ARR hits.

yes, but there are also other factors involved in that conversion.

1. is the jp and american economy the exact same? no
2. will everything bought in the jp economy have the exact same cost in america after the conversion? no

the point is even with the servers we have now and everyone using the same type of currency prices differ from server to server by wide margins. each server found the middle ground where the price they are willing to sell and the price people are willing to pay for each item.

the same will be true in 2.0. every item in game in the players market will not drop to 10% of the cost it was before. people will have to do the same trial and error to find the new price as they did originally because many things will be changing along with the gil conversion. the biggest thing that is happening along with the conversion is tons of new players which will change the demand for each item. with a change in demand will change the price for each item.

[darkstarpoet1]

The difference in wealth will be the same. You can think of money as distance. Your income is speed. If you have travelled 100 miles from the start location, you're 100 miles away from anyone who is just now starting. That doesn't change if some guy comes in and says "no, we're changing the units of measure. You're actually just 10 malms away from the start."

So now the new guys are only 10 malms from your current location. But it will take them every bit as long to catch up to you. It matters nothing that 10 is a a smaller number than 100. The distance is not changed. Only the number attached to it.

this is where you are wrong. there are multiple factors changing in 2.0 along with the gil conversion.

i'm going to give a few basic math things to show the difference. these are just random numbers, but show the trends.
let's say there are 100 people in the server now, but with 2.0 that jumps to 1000. the average wealth of those 100 are 5mil. the total wealth in that will be 500mil. the thing is in 2.0 they will drastically increase the demand for items due to the new players, but the overall wealth hasn't increased across the server because when new they start with nothing.

in the new servers you have the "same" wealth as before, but you actually have a completely new economy because with those 900 extra people the demands for each item changes. that effectively changes the needs and demands in the economy completely so the items themselves change in demand. this is why the economy will not be exactly the same. if the conversion was done previous to the 2.0 launch with nothing else changing it would be a straight conversion, but this is not the case so the entire economy will change.

[Wynn]

this is where you are wrong. there are multiple factors changing in 2.0 along with the gil conversion.

i'm going to give a few basic math things to show the difference. these are just random numbers, but show the trends.
let's say there are 100 people in the server now, but with 2.0 that jumps to 1000. the average wealth of those 100 are 5mil. the total wealth in that will be 500mil. the thing is in 2.0 they will drastically increase the demand for items due to the new players, but the overall wealth hasn't increased across the server because when new they start with nothing.

in the new servers you have the "same" wealth as before, but you actually have a completely new economy because with those 900 extra people the demands for each item changes. that effectively changes the needs and demands in the economy completely so the items themselves change in demand. this is why the economy will not be exactly the same. if the conversion was done previous to the 2.0 launch with nothing else changing it would be a straight conversion, but this is not the case so the entire economy will change.

This would happen with or without redenomination. It doesn't change the fact that 10x1 is the exact same result as 1x10.

As far as prices go, we all know they fluctuate but people are crazy if they think they can still get away with selling stuff in ARR for anywhere near the prices they are now.

A. Nobody will be able to afford it, not even established players.

B. Crafters like me who embrace this change will force the more stubborn ones to follow suit by pricing accordingly if they want to sell anything ever again.

[darkstarpoet1]

This would happen with or without redenomination. It doesn't change the fact that 10x1 is the exact same result as 1x10.

As far as prices go, we all know they fluctuate but people are crazy if they think they can still get away with selling stuff in ARR for anywhere near the prices they are now.

A. Nobody will be able to afford it, not even established players.

B. Crafters like me who embrace this change will force the more stubborn ones to follow suit by pricing accordingly if they want to sell anything ever again.

i'm not saying that gil values won't be the same, but this is one of the cases where perception will be reality. if people freak out when they see their gil get lower they will become more stingy spending it even though it has the same monetary value.

i remember a few years ago my wife and i went to vegas(either 2005 or 2006). she came by and i was playing craps and had been having a decent run at things. i had all of the bars in front of me filled of chips. she walked back by a few hours later and i was down to the top bar full and only part of the second bar with a few chips. she started yelling "we need to go before you lose all your chips". i looked at her crazy, but was sleepy so left with her anyways.

later we got to the room and i asked her what she was talking about. she was like earlier "you had all 5 bars full of chips, but later you were almost out of chips". i had to laugh at that and responded "yeah, but earlier it was full of $1 and $5 chips, but when you came back those were all $100 and $5 chips". even though i had picked up over $13,000 in cash that night playing craps she thought i was about to go broke because she just saw the numbers of chips get lower and paid no attention to the value those chips had.

this is what i mean by perception is reality in most cases.

[Claustrum]

this is where you are wrong. there are multiple factors changing in 2.0 along with the gil conversion.

i'm going to give a few basic math things to show the difference. these are just random numbers, but show the trends.
let's say there are 100 people in the server now, but with 2.0 that jumps to 1000. the average wealth of those 100 are 5mil. the total wealth in that will be 500mil. the thing is in 2.0 they will drastically increase the demand for items due to the new players, but the overall wealth hasn't increased across the server because when new they start with nothing.

in the new servers you have the "same" wealth as before, but you actually have a completely new economy because with those 900 extra people the demands for each item changes. that effectively changes the needs and demands in the economy completely so the items themselves change in demand. this is why the economy will not be exactly the same. if the conversion was done previous to the 2.0 launch with nothing else changing it would be a straight conversion, but this is not the case so the entire economy will change.

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing the 90% slash in all current gil, all sources of gil, and all gil costs, so that is the only factor I'm discussing. This thread was started due to complaints of how the gil slash is going to change the economy, not how every other factor is going to change the economy.

You are correct in your points certainly, but I am only attempting to address concerns about the gil slash itself, not everything else that ARR is bringing.

[darkstarpoet1]

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing the 90% slash in all current gil, all sources of gil, and all gil costs, so that is the only factor I'm discussing. This thread was started due to complaints of how the gil slash is going to change the economy, not how every other factor is going to change the economy.

You are correct in your points certainly, but I am only attempting to address concerns about the gil slash itself, not everything else that ARR is bringing.

no, i agree with you completely that your buying power will be the same. i'm not upset about the change even though i'm being reduced(i didn't say losing) by hundreds of millions because it is the same percentage in drop as everyone else. my only point is that the perception of people can make it a reality in that they can become more stingy and less willing to buy some items because they have it in their heads they have less overall. that along with other factors can lead to certain high sought after items now to become near worthless in 2.0 and items people take for granted now to drastically increase in value due to the new demands for them.

my only reason for posting is just to point out that there are multiple things that will be coming in 2.0 so the items prices now are not assured to be of the same worth then. that just means the economy could shift one way or the other and we can't really expect everything to be dropped by 90% because some could lose wayyyy more than 90% of its value while some may only lose 50% or so.

the reason i use the vegas example is because the wife thought i was doing really well when i had close to $300 in $1 and $5 chips because she saw tons of them, but when she came back and i had over $13,000 in black chips she thought i was about broke because she believed it to be less money overall. i had basically done what xiv is doing on the craps table. the $300 i had the first time she came up was still there, but it was all converted into 3 individual black $100 chips and all she did was count the overall number of chips.

edit: i guess a better example would be the first time i had 300 chips that were all $1 each and the second time she came up i had 30 chips that were all $10, but since i had 270 less chips she thought i was losing. i just wanted to lose a real example instead of some made up one. it was just a real life example because even though i was over $12,700 farther up the second time she still thought i was lower. her perception was her reality even though she was completely wrong.

[Xenor]

People with a lot of gil will be at a small advantage. We'll be pricing our stuff in V2 at 1/10 and selling by the bucket load while people who didn't understand the change will be sitting there with their stuff not selling and complaining about "undercutters".

[Duuude007]

People with a lot of gil will be at a small advantage. We'll be pricing our stuff in V2 at 1/10 and selling by the bucket load while people who didn't understand the change will be sitting there with their stuff not selling and complaining about "undercutters".

Its all psychological. The literal advantage is not there, and people will be forced to accept that and adapt, or stagnate their profit margin.

[Altanas]

You can imagine the ideas that must get thrown about at SE's development sessions:

make v1 gil only usable for transactions in market wards
make v2 gil usable in auction house
make all gil Dated and Untradeable XD