Realm Reborn = downgrade?

[Biggs]

I still play ff tactics fairly regularly, and by today's standards, the graphics are crap. Plenty of people, and more I might add than those that play xiv, still play the hell out ffxi, and it's over a decade old. Minecraft looks like an Atari game and sold millions.

This game in its current version had some of the best Mmo graphics on the market, and it tanked. So my question to people complaining about graphics and 2.0 would be, did you really expect you would have your cake and eat it too? Making games is about managing available resources to run your game. I for one will gladly trade the ridiculous things people are worried about graphically for better story and deeper gameplay.

[Nemy]

I still play ff tactics fairly regularly, and by today's standards, the graphics are crap. Plenty of people, and more I might add than those that play xiv, still play the hell out ffxi. This game in its current version had some of the best Mmo graphics on the market, and it tanked. So my question to people complaining about graphics and 2.0 would be, did you really expect you would have your cake and eat it too? Making games is about managing available resources to run your game. Mine craft looks like an Atari game and sold millions.

The fallacies here are too many to address...

I'll give it a try later.

[Firon]

I still play ff tactics fairly regularly, and by today's standards, the graphics are crap. Plenty of people, and more I might add than those that play xiv, still play the hell out ffxi. This game in its current version had some of the best Mmo graphics on the market, and it tanked. So my question to people complaining about graphics and 2.0 would be, did you really expect you would have your cake and eat it too? Making games is about managing available resources to run your game. Mine craft looks like an Atari game and sold millions. I for one will gladly trade the ridiculous things people are worried about graphically for better story and deeper gameplay. That's just me though.....

I wanna like your post 100 times but i can't.

[Shura]

I still play ff tactics fairly regularly, and by today's standards, the graphics are crap. Plenty of people, and more I might add than those that play xiv, still play the hell out ffxi, and it's over a decade old. Minecraft looks like an Atari game and sold millions.

This game in its current version had some of the best Mmo graphics on the market, and it tanked. So my question to people complaining about graphics and 2.0 would be, did you really expect you would have your cake and eat it too? Making games is about managing available resources to run your game. I for one will gladly trade the ridiculous things people are worried about graphically for better story and deeper gameplay.

FFXIV did indeed fail but it was never because of the graphics, it was simply developed bad, the story was horrible and had no endgame or deep engaging content. The current version after all the updates is a 100x better and last i checked, they didn't need to downgrade the graphics in order to add in all that content.

I too play a lot of old sprite based games, but comparing FF Tactics which was developed close to 15 years ago proves nothing. If tactics was first released this generation and looked like the original ps version im sure there would be a shit load of ppl who would complain about graphics. As already stated, even if they did completely cut out the animation, im sure everyone is still gonna play ARR but it would be nice to get a dev response on the subject. Id personally rather have the enhanced movement animation over chocobo feathers flapping when u jump.

[Firon]

FFXIV did need fail but it was never because of the graphics, it was simply developed bad, the story was horrible and had no endgame or deep engaging content. The current version after all the updates is a 100x better and last i checked, they didn't need to downgrade the graphics in order to add in all that content.

I too play a lot of old sprite based games, but comparing FF Tactics which was developed close to 15 years ago proves nothing. If tactics was first released this generation and looked like the original ps version im sure there would be a shit load of ppl who would complain about graphics. As already stated, even if they did completely cut out the animation, im sure everyone is still gonna play ARR but it would be nice to get a dev response on the subject. Id personally rather have the enhanced movement animation over chocobo feathers flapping when u jump.

The content in 1.0 is still bare bones and the animation is 1 of the many reason ppl don't bring melee to a lot of stuff.

[Elexia]

The content in 1.0 is still bare bones and the animation is 1 of the many reason ppl don't bring melee to a lot of stuff.

No, the reason is because it's easier to stack BLM and BRD for things, they get locked too btw.

[Biggs]

The fallacies here are too many to address...

I'll give it a try later.

Don't bother, I am not even sure you know what fallacies are.

FFXIV did need fail but it was never because of the graphics, it was simply developed bad, the story was horrible and had no endgame or deep engaging content. The current version after all the updates is a 100x better and last i checked, they didn't need to downgrade the graphics in order to add in all that content.

I too play a lot of old sprite based games, but comparing FF Tactics which was developed close to 15 years ago proves nothing. If tactics was first released this generation and looked like the original ps version im sure there would be a shit load of ppl who would complain about graphics. As already stated, even if they did completely cut out the animation, im sure everyone is still gonna play ARR but it would be nice to get a dev response on the subject. Id personally rather have the enhanced movement animation over chocobo feathers flapping when u jump.

"Last you checked" lol You know someone on the staff personally that told you over a beer or something; "Yeeaaahhhh, we COULD have kept the graphics in 2.0 looking killer with all this new stuff we're adding, but then we remembered we really hate making money and were like, forget it!" ???

And the point you make about about why xiv failed proves my initial point about graphics not being the end all be all in what determines a games success. Also, while tactics wasn't made recently, Minecraft was, with even worse graphics than tactics, an the masses loved it.

They also said the gamescom footage was run basically at ps3 specs. We should just wait until we see the beta to decide how we think it should look.

[Shura]

Don't bother, I am not even sure you know what fallacies are.




"Last you checked" lol You know someone on the staff personally that told you over a beer or something; "Yeeaaahhhh, we COULD have kept the graphics in 2.0 looking killer with all this new stuff we're adding, but then we remembered we really hate making money and were like, forget it!" ???

And the point you make about about why xiv failed proves my initial point about graphics not being the end all be all in what determines a games success. Also, while tactics wasn't made recently, Minecraft was, with even worse graphics than tactics, an the masses loved it.

They also said the gamescom footage was run basically at ps3 specs. We should just wait until we see the beta to decide how we think it should look.

What are u talking about? i never said anything about 2.0, i was comparing FFXIV at launch to the current version (1.23), with all the added content. The point i was trying to make was that Yoshi and the new team didn't need to take out animation or graphics to add in all the content. "Last i checked" was referring to last i logged in, but seems like you completely misinterpreted my entire post.

I never said graphics was everything, in fact in my post i also said that even with the animation out everyone was gonna still end up playing ARR.

I don't know where your getting your info from but i don't remember them ever mentioning that the gamescon footage being run on a PC with similar specs to PS3. In most interviews at Gamescon, the interviewers stated that Yoshida pulled out a vaio with similar specs to PS3 that ran ARR to show the difference between the higher end PC and lower end PC. If there was indeed a official post that said gamescon footage ran on a PC similar to ps3 then plz post link to source.

Honestly reading your post, seems like your simply trying to pick a fight. Your first point makes no sense, since in my post i stated "current version", i don't see the point of your 2nd point since in my original post i also said graphics was not everything and i simply want to know the source to your 3rd point.

[Nemy]

Don't bother, I am not even sure you know what fallacies are.

Today kids, we learn about fallacies!

Example 1 :

lol You know someone on the staff personally that told you over a beer or something; "Yeeaaahhhh, we COULD have kept the graphics in 2.0 looking killer with all this new stuff we're adding, but then we remembered we really hate making money and were like, forget it!" ???

This is a classic example of what we call : "False Dilemma"

"two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more"

Biggs proposes that SE either

1. Absolutely needed to downgrade the "graphics" in order to add more content. (although the thread is not about graphics, that's another fallacy, i'll get to it in a minute...)

or

2. Hates money.

When in reality, there are other options for example : "being able to keep your "graphical" quality while adding more content, yet you choose the easy way of trading an existing element for something new"

Example 2 :

Pay attention now, this is a little bit more tricky.

Minecraft was, with even worse graphics than tactics, an the masses loved it.

This an example of "Affirming the consequent", while also fitting definitions of a "Faulty generalization"

"the antecedent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be true because the consequent is true"

Biggs here proposes that Minecraft has "bad graphics" and it is loved, therefore every game with "bad graphics" (assuming FFXIV) -will or could- be loved. (regardless of genre, target group etc...)

Example 3.

This is simple, very often observed, and could be really detrimental to any conversation.

Biggs started replying in this thread derailing and misrepresenting my (quite detailed about animation) original post, referring to the subject in discussion as "graphics"

This is the old and known "Strawman Argument", a fallacy that's never missing in any forum on the interwebs.

No, i'm not talking about "graphics" you fallacious galka, i specifically talk about character animation.

[Nemy]

I still play ff tactics fairly regularly, and by today's standards, the graphics are crap.

I still play tetris. That doesn't stop me from being disgusted by Aion-tier mmo's with awful world design and animation.

Plenty of people, and more I might add than those that play xiv, still play the hell out ffxi, and it's over a decade old.

Because the people who built FFXI, built it to last. XI's world design can arguably stand next to many "current generation" mmo's. The people who actually have seen XI on decent PC's would know what i mean. You don't even need your nostalgia goggles to appreciate Sky, even today. FFXI's team provided an amazing feel to their game by the standards of that time. Remember we talk about a time where 2002 WoW was considered current generation.

FFXIV's team, at least the people responsible for the atmosphere (including animation) succeeded in providing the same level of quality FFXI did at its time. Nobody had ever seen such amazing animation and feel to the character movement in an mmo since. And now the work of those animators could just be thrown away.

Minecraft looks like an Atari game and sold millions.

Minecraft SELLS this aesthetic. It didn't sell millions of copies despite looking like an Atari game, it sold because of its simplistic boxy environment.

This game in its current version had some of the best Mmo graphics on the market, and it tanked.

It didn't tank BECAUSE of its "graphics" it tanked DESPITE of it. So what is your point exactly?

So my question to people complaining about graphics and 2.0 would be, did you really expect you would have your cake and eat it too?

My question to you would be, Do you expect the mechanic that you gave your car to for a broken windshield to say : Well mister Biggs, we fixed your windshield, but remember those awesome brakes you had that made driving so pleasant? Well we kinda got rid of them. (?)

We all know that they could fix the animation lock without having to completely throw away the current animation. Copying and pasting generic moving animation was the EASY way to do it, ruining one of the best things that made this game feel different than others in the process. (if that is the case indeed)

Making games is about managing available resources to run your game. I for one will gladly trade the ridiculous things people are worried about graphically for better story and deeper gameplay.

You should really play single player games.

Primarily, an MMO's job is not to tell you a good story. There are different genres / mediums that can do that infinitely better from books to single player rpgs.

An MMO's job is to make you feel that you're in a vibrant, believable world. Not necessarily realistic, but believable. The quests, the story, and dialogue, are all secondary. The focus is on you and the rest of the players. If you ask ANYONE about their experiences of FFXI, they wont tell you about the story line, but THEIR OWN stories, THEIR OWN experiences with other people in Vanadiel.

I don't even remember the storyline of FFXI, but travelling from Bastok to Jeuno with a couple of friends, was one of the things i will never forget. If the game looked and felt like WoW it wouldn't be the same. And animation plays a huge role here.

inb4 tl;dr but anyway, i'm sorry.