2.0 Armoury System & Multiple Jobs? Concerns

[Dzian]

I'm just going to state that you all underestimate the value that one or maybe two abilities can have on a job.
With Dark Knight coming off of Gladiator (what I doubt, i'm pretty sure it's most likely to come off of Lancer due to ability synergy) a single Darkness ability that sets up a 'buff' on you that eats your HP every time you attack but grants you a massive damage boost, even bigger than Power Surge III, would pretty much set you on the DD path and away from the tank path.
That alone, given that the HP price is big enough, would make so that your shield skills are really only nescessary to save your vastly variable HP pool, and you'd really want more to stay out of the enemy's way as you kill yourself faster than the enemy does.

Of course, that is just one example.

my concern with that is that even then the dark knight would still be using riot blade, goring blade etc and thus not feeling any different from a gla / pld. it wouldn't feel so much like a true dark knight. simply a gladiator with a bit more oomph or something. and if your wielding a great big 2handed wepaon as a drk should then you won't be holding a shield making all shield skills obselete

[Aion]

On my mind....what if, Dark Knight stem from GLA AND LNC? so gear resctriction apply as GLA(add greatsword/sword-schyte weapontype) and skills utilizing LNC skill? I know it will be confusing, but I think it is the best implementation using current system....

[Reika]

I always said way back in the day that they should not have tried to make classes themselves too "Unique" and rework them to be role-specific, because Jobs were suspost to accomplish that. Because they reworked classes to be too-role specific, classes such as GLD is way to restricted to one way of life *The tank*, It would be difficult/impossible to give them another job to branch off of them without gimping the JOB and making it totally wierd. Like Thaum never needed to lose their heal spell, because using the job BLM could have just been the increaser of attack spell potency at the sacrifice (lol) of the ability to use that spell.

If they plan on having the ability for multiple jobs to come off of one class, they are going to have to rework/add skills to classes that simply become unusable without a job or without the right job. A Gladiator could essentially have 30 different skills to learn, but PLD would lose use of ~15 of them, DRK could would lose use of different ~15, and a jobless gld would lose use of anything that seems too "DRK"y or "PLD"y. The current GLD doesnt really fit well with DRK because of its defense oriented traits and skillset. Pretty much not leaving it completely up to JOB quests to have some JOB skills learned and avaliable for the right JOB. I don't want them to not add any new classes (Such as a greatsword or scythe class) that could make use of DRK as well tho.

Like one other said as well, a swords damage is far too weak when compared to other physical DD classes, therefore DRK would be totally gimp when trying to DD with them anyways. Gonna need a new class with a new weapon with some power for the DD DRK.

[darkstarpoet1]

agreed reika. yoshi shot himself in the foot when he made the classes only have one possible way to go by limiting them down way too far and then added jobs on top of it. what he should have done was taken jobs and made them where they did 2 things on the classes, but more of a basic and generic form. that way when a job came out you only had access to half of the class abilities, but got a massive boost in the other half with their effectiveness. that in itself would have let the jobs be more unique and stand apart from the classes alot farther.

i'll just use thm for example:
instead of 30 have the job start at 25 which would have given you 6 skills on a level 50 job, but they could have also added multiple boosts for what the job is meant for. instead of 15 abilities they could have had 21 for each class.

these would have been available on both jobs
1. spirit dart
2. flashfreeze
3. sacrifice(only be a single target the strength of cure 1)
4. siphon mp(single target version only)
5. sanguine rite

these would have been on the class and the nuking job
1. banish
2. scourge
3. shadowseer
4. necrogenesis
5. parisomy
6. dark seal
7. a nuke comparable to freeze with enm down
8. excruciate

these 8 would be on the class and only the dot job
1. bio
2. dia
3. poison
4. drain(single target only)
5. resonance
6. sleep
7. siphon tp(single target only)
8. absorb defense(single target only)

when you add those 8 for the job and the 5 that are used on both along with the 6 abilities from the job itself along with the boosts for that type of job you would have had all 3 play completely different in quality and gaming style. they could have left the rest of the cross classing options in and left a little more cross class room than we currently have and each job could have been built to do exactly what it was. the same type of ideas could have been done on every class to make them more diverse and have room to grow into the new jobs as they were added without having to completely redo the abilities repeatedly.

basically when you went to the class you would have access to all 21 abilities, but without the boost from the jobs each spell would be weaker. when you went to the nuking job you would have access to the 8 nuking abilities, the 5 that are available to both jobs, the 6 abilities that you get with the job, and the 2 traits that make the base spells hit harder for the designated jobs.

[Duelle]

agreed reika. yoshi shot himself in the foot when he made the classes only have one possible way to go by limiting them down way too far and then added jobs on top of it. what he should have done was taken jobs and made them where they did 2 things on the classes, but more of a basic and generic form. that way when a job came out you only had access to half of the class abilities, but got a massive boost in the other half with their effectiveness. that in itself would have let the jobs be more unique and stand apart from the classes alot farther.

I don't think he shot himself in the foot at all. I think he was just using what he was limited to, introducing roles while doing minimal ajustments once the first class/ability overhaul happened. What would be the point of making GLA middle of the road right now if their only viable role is tank since we only have PLD to go by? I expect major changes in class design to help accomodate the new jobs and other possibilities further down the road. There's little point to doing it right now seeing that 1.0 will go away soon.

[darkstarpoet1]

I don't think he shot himself in the foot at all. I think he was just using what he was limited to, introducing roles while doing minimal ajustments once the first class/ability overhaul happened. What would be the point of making GLA middle of the road right now if their only viable role is tank since we only have PLD to go by? I expect major changes in class design to help accomodate the new jobs and other possibilities further down the road. There's little point to doing it right now seeing that 1.0 will go away soon.

maybe, but the reason i say he shot himself in the foot was stating that jobs are for party when classes are for solo. the problem in the majority of jobs they are more beneficial to solo as well as party because the classes were reduced to more generic forms of the jobs without all the boosts the jobs give.

if he had left each class where it had 2 things it was good at he could have actually done that, but with them only being the job with the same role they pretty much stuck them in one place.

[Kafeen]

i'll just use thm for example:
instead of 30 have the job start at 25 which would have given you 6 skills on a level 50 job, but they could have also added multiple boosts for what the job is meant for. instead of 15 abilities they could have had 21 for each class.

these would have been available on both jobs
...

these would have been on the class and the nuking job
...

these 8 would be on the class and only the dot job
...

I was just thinking of something similar.

Abilities could be changed so that they aren't always available to a job that spans from that class.

For example if CON could change to WHM or SMN:
Abilities such as Cure and Raise would be usable by CON/WHM
Abilities such as elemental nukes would be usable by CON/SMN

Then, add additional abilities to WHM and SMN, so SMN would have various summoning abilities, WHM could have spells like Banish, Dia or status heals.

This way, SMN and WHM would be quite different classes despite coming from the same class.

The same could be applied to other classes, Gladiator sacrificing offensive abilities to become PLD or sacrificing defencive abilities to become DRK, for example.

[Skies]

my concern with that is that even then the dark knight would still be using riot blade, goring blade etc and thus not feeling any different from a gla / pld. it wouldn't feel so much like a true dark knight. simply a gladiator with a bit more oomph or something. and if your wielding a great big 2handed wepaon as a drk should then you won't be holding a shield making all shield skills obselete

Ask around the many players who complained when Bard came out how bad they felt about the entire shift in how their class works in relation to their job. Given how the entire rest of the party is limited, Bards have been put in a distinctively support role, not only due to Bard buffs but also due to them being one of two (BRD and PLD) jobs which can do secondary healing and support (Despite the fact it's always the archer's fault, there were many times that my LS's Bard saved us from a wipe with a Raise).

Gotta also remember what goes in the secondary abilities you're restricted to. Depending, a different set of sub-abilities would change things dramatically, say that DRK comes from Gladiator (it won't, if it ever comes up it's coming from Lancer), but it can sub LNC and THM, and it has at least one spell nuke, Umbral-type. Now wouldn't that give an entirely different playstyle than what a PLD has?

[darkstarpoet1]

I was just thinking of something similar.

Abilities could be changed so that they aren't always available to a job that spans from that class.

For example if CON could change to WHM or SMN:
Abilities such as Cure and Raise would be usable by CON/WHM
Abilities such as elemental nukes would be usable by CON/SMN

Then, add additional abilities to WHM and SMN, so SMN would have various summoning abilities, WHM could have spells like Banish, Dia or status heals.

This way, SMN and WHM would be quite different classes despite coming from the same class.

The same could be applied to other classes, Gladiator sacrificing offensive abilities to become PLD or sacrificing defencive abilities to become DRK, for example.

yes, exactly what i mean. by having the class only have half of its abilities available for each job then each job would play completely different. the problem is with the way they did the classes all of there skills are available on the jobs with just 5 extra abilities. that is why the job feels like the class is because they really are. the more abilities the jobs keep from the class they come from the more they will feel the same.

[Dzian]

Gotta also remember what goes in the secondary abilities you're restricted to. Depending, a different set of sub-abilities would change things dramatically, say that DRK comes from Gladiator (it won't, if it ever comes up it's coming from Lancer), but it can sub LNC and THM, and it has at least one spell nuke, Umbral-type. Now wouldn't that give an entirely different playstyle than what a PLD has?

I based the drk coming from gladiator as that is the popular concept on the forums and the one example by yoshi p. the idea of drk is to give gla a dd option so it wouldn't come from lnc.

i think though seeing the ideas a few people have mentioned in this thread and the pipedreams things. the classes are being looked to as stepping stones into jobs and the concept of the armory system is that classes would be more than that. if you have a defensive pld an offensive drk and a middle of the road gla. the gla seems kinda useless here. if your party needs a dd the a drk would be better. if your party needs a tank then a pld would be better there isnt really much where you'd want the gla over either of the other 2 options and that is part of the problem with whole armory system and why classes are mostly useless