Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Rutelor]

I don't really care how progression is done as long as it doesn't feel like I'm grinding to get more content. I'd rather level up while doing content at my own level.

Low and mid-level content is the answer. Yes, you're right.

I also agree that it doesn't matter if we are grinding or questing, even though people that read my OP title might be surprised that I lean towards the grind.

As I said before, I'm not against grinding to level. Actually, I enjoyed doing that in FFXI. What I meant to write against was the idea of desperately grinding towards the only significant and gratifying content, which right now is the so-called "Endgame." Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

The game should not be Endgame heavy, and should validate the path as much as the destination.

R

[Elexia]

I think there should be more content for lower levels, or at least content that doesn't require having certain jobs at 50. For instance, casinos (like the possible golden saucer style place in 2.0) and a few more lower level dungeons would be a good start.

If they remove power leveling sure. If not, low-mid level content is pointless since you spend all of 2 hours in those level ranges.

Yes that's an exaggeration but you blow past low level content like it's nobody's business in XIV, remember Shposhae? Yeah exactly. No point going to it when you can power level through those levels.

[Rutelor]

I wish I could 'Like' the OP one bajillion times.
I literally have stopped playing several times because I thought leveling in 2.0 might be more fun, and I should save the experience for when it comes out. When I found out they were just going to speed it up and make it an endgame fest, seriously /disappointed.

Exactly my point.

Slow the leveling process, give us plenty of low-level and mid-level content.

As I've clarified above, I wasn't writing against grinding as a mechanism to level. As a matter of fact, I like leveling through grinding. What I was trying to position myself against was the idea of a game that seems to be about to become a rat race to the end. I think accelerating the grind--and making the game end-game heavy--only stultifies it, and will render it boring and perfunctory.

Give us a path, not only a destination.

R

[Rutelor]

If they remove power leveling sure. If not, low-mid level content is pointless since you spend all of 2 hours in those level ranges.

I concur.

R

[Hyrist]

If they remove power leveling sure. If not, low-mid level content is pointless since you spend all of 2 hours in those level ranges.

Yes that's an exaggeration but you blow past low level content like it's nobody's business in XIV, remember Shposhae? Yeah exactly. No point going to it when you can power level through those levels.

I disagree.

No matter how many exploits you will attempt to plug, the players who are obsessed with progress will always find an exploit. Manaburns, Arrow Burns, TP Burns, Astral Burns, are all evidence to this from FFXI.

Conversely, Power-Levling is not a common practice even with it as easily available as it is here in FFXIV.

The speed of leveling is not the problem - it is the long term reward for content is. Think back to Chains of Promithia, how many people still do ENMs? How many people REMEMBER all the ENMs? Or BCNMs? The only ones that are recalled are the ones with rewards that benefit high level players. The span of how quickly or how long it takes to reach that level doesn't matter.

It does not really matter how you slice it - without flat out removing levels there is going to be content that is overlooked unless you make it relevant to endgame players. Period. If it is relevant to endgame players, the level the content is introduced is irrelevant. Therefore the solution is to make low to mid level content significant to endgame players. Then you make it so that low and high level players can play side by side in this content, and you have a system that kills the absolute rush to endgame.

The leveling speed is completely, and utterly irrelevant to the solution. The accessibility and significance of low and midgame content to higher level players is.

I'm sorry. I understand the concept of going on a journey and working to be better is significant to you. But Leveling is not the only means in which this feeling can be established. Slowing down leveling, however, does significantly slow down accessibility for players to play together, because those at endgame will have endgame concerns, and those who are leveling up will only have leveling up concerns.

Without bringing these two together, we will play together less, unless you force people to play together by choking out solo content. The point of this game is to play together. So the solution to that must make it so that players are enticed, rather than forced, to play along. If you make it forced, by dragging along the leveling span, we will bleed players like water from a broken dam.

If you make content profitable and accessible to everyone, then the leveling span is insignificant, you're growing into a stronger character/player by gaining real experience adventuring. Sad that the solution is so binary, but the problems here are that severe.

[Nazrakin]

I have been playing the game since beta to date..... So yes i have been following the game, i was not impressed with the waste of resources on "Seasonal events" that added little to no lore, or the spamfest that beastman camps are, really there is little to no strategy to them other than "Zerg everything till it dies", wish was ok back then since the game needed content in any shape or form, but is been 2 full years, the excuse of 2.0 is irrelevant since they can add content at cap level, but not in mid or lower level ? really ? yet they do a welcome back campaign.... smart move there yoshi.

Also the party search function, that was something i was really exited about, until i saw it and then i was like ..... wow really ? this is nothing like any LFG tool in any MMO, it is so.... backward and better yet utterly useless..... yeah if something as important as that is delivered in such conditions what excuse is there ? None at all really.

Oh and i never said i have no faith in him, just not blind faith as some people have, wish is ok as long as like religion, they don't try to shove it down my throat, do i have my doubts ? Yes, are they well founded ? In my opinion they are, not to you ? Cool, but there is really no reason for attacks as childish as "Well if you dont like it leave" lol

Its not childish at all, its the truth. Its one thing to say that you don't like something or that you are worried about this or that -- but you seem to have a definite pessimism about the game and the direction it is headed.

Anyway, they have actually added a bunch of stuff to the lower-mid tier. Jobs and all of their associated AF/Spell quests are mid level content. There's a Shoposhae, Totorak, quests for ifrit, grand companies, and the Chocobo, that's in addition to a ton of other side quests. They've also made numerous "quality of life" improvements to the level up game such as exp chains and the reshuffling of abilities.

Yes they've added a lot more to the "end game" but that makes sense since that is where the vast majority of the playerbase is. Likewise, when people do complete this stuff its almost never at an appropriate level because they just use their 50s to steam roll on through it.

[Nazrakin]

Low and mid-level content is the answer. Yes, you're right.

I also agree that it doesn't matter if we are grinding or questing, even though people that read my OP title might be surprised that I lean towards the grind.

As I said before, I'm not against grinding to level. Actually, I enjoyed doing that in FFXI. What I meant to write against was the idea of desperately grinding towards the only significant and gratifying content, which right now is the so-called "Endgame." Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

The game should not be Endgame heavy, and should validate the path as much as the destination.

R

The problem is that you regard the level cap as some sort of finale, as if people just get to the cap, the credits roll and the journey stops -- that is not at all what happens. Even in FFXI people would spend months going from 1-75 and years at level 75. That is why a game has to be "endgame" heavy.

The key is to have good progression at the level cap. I think its one thing that vanilla WOW did fantastically well. You'd reach the level cap and then you'd progress from 5/10man dungeons to the beginner raids. Once your guild had conquered the 4 beginning raids you could progress to the mid level and finally to Naxx. FFXI had a similar thing, though it was less defined.

I'm not saying that 1-50 shouldn't be fun, I just don't think that the two need to be equally balanced in content.

[Duelle]

How would such a system work if you have 7 Classes to level, but only one set of quest that probably won't last for 350 level ^^

I'd create as many class-specific quests as possible. So say you're in Hyrstmill. As a MRD/WAR you see one aspect/story of hyrstmill. As a GLA/PLD you see a different story involving hyrstmill. As an ARC/BRD you see yet another story involving hyrstmill. And so on. You could then have some quests make references to the other quest lines as a way to entice the player to change classes later and do that quest line to see how it all fits.

It's not kind on resources and whatnot, but it's an idea.

[Vingtdeux]

I agree with the majority.

I really wish getting to 50 was slower, even if there's not enough content and a little grinding is required.

The part I enjoy the most in RPG's is to develop a character. I'm failry casual and I had all DoW/DoM at 50 in May 2011, which isn't normal.

I even have nostalgia of failing leves since that actually made my character grow. I don't have any nostalgia for spamming Ifrit for months though.

[Rutelor]

I disagree.

No matter how many exploits you will attempt to plug, the players who are obsessed with progress will always find an exploit. Manaburns, Arrow Burns, TP Burns, Astral Burns, are all evidence to this from FFXI.

Conversely, Power-Levling is not a common practice even with it as easily available as it is here in FFXIV.

The speed of leveling is not the problem - it is the long term reward for content is. Think back to Chains of Promithia, how many people still do ENMs? How many people REMEMBER all the ENMs? Or BCNMs? The only ones that are recalled are the ones with rewards that benefit high level players. The span of how quickly or how long it takes to reach that level doesn't matter.

It does not really matter how you slice it - without flat out removing levels there is going to be content that is overlooked unless you make it relevant to endgame players. Period. If it is relevant to endgame players, the level the content is introduced is irrelevant. Therefore the solution is to make low to mid level content significant to endgame players. Then you make it so that low and high level players can play side by side in this content, and you have a system that kills the absolute rush to endgame.

The leveling speed is completely, and utterly irrelevant to the solution. The accessibility and significance of low and midgame content to higher level players is.

I'm sorry. I understand the concept of going on a journey and working to be better is significant to you. But Leveling is not the only means in which this feeling can be established. Slowing down leveling, however, does significantly slow down accessibility for players to play together, because those at endgame will have endgame concerns, and those who are leveling up will only have leveling up concerns.

Without bringing these two together, we will play together less, unless you force people to play together by choking out solo content. The point of this game is to play together. So the solution to that must make it so that players are enticed, rather than forced, to play along. If you make it forced, by dragging along the leveling span, we will bleed players like water from a broken dam.

If you make content profitable and accessible to everyone, then the leveling span is insignificant, you're growing into a stronger character/player by gaining real experience adventuring. Sad that the solution is so binary, but the problems here are that severe.

I would like to entreat you to entertain conjecture of this:

A serious array of content at different levels of the game, all of them capped, and with auto level-sync features enabled. All of this content grants relevant gear that doesn't become obsolete (perhaps because it scales its stats as you advance in level). Make it difficult to obtain (I am not saying statistically impossible, mind you), but also make the content grant tangential rewards that, on their own, justify the time and energy expenditure on said content. Do this through organic planning that goes beyond the current level cap for the game, so that you don't find yourself constantly superseding items that were granted in past content. Or if you can't totally do this, at least keep revising the stats of the old gear, so that it never loses its viability in game.

I totally agree with the statement in which you affirm:

Therefore the solution is to make low to mid level content significant to endgame players. Then you make it so that low and high level players can play side by side in this content, and you have a system that kills the absolute rush to endgame.

If this is a puzzle for the developers, then it's one totally worth their time to try to solve.

What I don't agree with is this:

Therefore the solution is to make low to mid level content significant to endgame players. Then you make it so that low and high level players can play side by side in this content, and you have a system that kills the absolute rush to endgame.

It's my opinion that speed has less to do with the fact that end-game-level players refuse to look back on past content, than with the fact that celerity of leveling makes the process feel perfunctory, almost unnecessary, and ultimately boring. It also tends to burn the real end-game content quickly, since the population gets to it too easily, and bores of it as fast. Then, the only solution is to add more content. This is not bad, but it ends up producing a game along the lines of World of Warcraft which, for all its virtues, felt de-centered, disperse, almost to distraction, and with a fundamental lack of connection--even worse, connectivity--between all its disparate parts. People moved away from the previous expansion and never took another look at it, because it fell passeé, superseded.

R