Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Forerunner]

We will. They need enough quests to make leveling through it viable, so...

Hell no they don't.

[Viritess]

I think that the "quest hub" style leveling is definitely more interesting than npc grinding. Where games like WOW have failed, is that they often punish grouping in such a way that its never actually faster. There is a lot that can be done to make questing group friendly...

1. No exp penalties. If you'd get 500exp for killing a mob solo, you should get 500 for killing it in a group.
2. Zone bosses. Similar to the dynamic zone bosses in GW2 -- except that they should require some amount of coordination. Have them award large exp point bonuses and loot chests for every participant.
3. Level-up Dungeons that do not require a "holy trinity". The key here is that you and any group of friends can get together and just do a dungeon instead of spending hours looking for a tank and/or healer. You make it fun by focusing the challenge on avoiding traps and mob mechanics than just needing to heal bomb the tank.
4. We know that Behest are being redone. My hope is that it becomes entirely "open world" and the quest hub is truly under siege. They could encourage player participation by including a zone wide buff for successful defense. Again, it should require coordination and strategy so that players have to communicate to succeed.

These are all old ideas and things that have been done before. In Guild Wars 2 there's these huge bosses in the zone that require grouping but everyone just dog piles on top of it and spams 1+2. All these game have instances but you often can't find anyone to heal or tank so a lot of folks just don't bother. If the content isn't inviting and doesn't encouraging players to talk to one another then they won't.

All these, supported by a great content finder, would definitely encourage group play. The idea being that you can solo to 50 just fine but you are definitely missing out if you don't group.

I like your points for possible grouping. Alot of games have done maybe 1 of those, but to have a real open system i think all should be included. As you mentioned GW2 does probably the most of the above we've seen in a game so far.

I also endore the possibility of people grouping mid quest or any activity where people are on the same step in increasing numbers. Chain quests can be fun and interesting when you find the activity or story interesting. But being stuck in the middle of one and then denied the option of bringing your buddies along just sucks.

The dog pile certainly happens in GW2 but with the limited playtime the beta has seen its little wonder. However 1+2 i'd mark up to general in-experience, theres a plethera of skills that can be very handy. What i like most about GW2's area monsters is the scaing difficulty and addition of boss skills as more people arrive.

While technically "parting" isn't a pre-req in GW2, i'd wager in a pair of weekends on GW2 i've "grouped" with the same people for things a fair percentage vs FF14.

I also give a double thumbs up for the less Trinity focus in your post. Having High DEF high HP tanking + curebombs usually means Paper thin DDs, often Nixing the fun feeling of, "well that fight really didn't go as planned, but we pulled it out somehow" You don't hear this line too often in LS and Voice chat. More often you hear, "well the tank went down so we were screwed."

When the numbers between class types in a trinity gets so far apart to make a risk to the tanks means a DD gets one-shot. It leaves very little room for improvisation and reaction when something doesn't go well and leads to memorization of the "Dance moves" to survive a boss fight. Personally i find the Prior more fun then the latter.

[Duelle]

Said the person wearing sunglasses.

Just because some people can't enjoy a good journey doesn't mean the developers need to do everything in their power to prevent those of us do from enjoying one.

Right, because FFXI was so much about enjoying the journey--oh wait, no it wasn't. It was mired by an obsession for efficacy that screwed over more than just a handful of jobs. If you weren't chaining 200 exp/kill mobs you were in a fail party. If you didn't have the "right" jobs you were screwed into waiting even longer to find a group. A prime example of a game as per the OP that was turned into a rat race not by design, but by its players.

The outcome is the same, which I noted in the part of my post you chose to ignore. If anything, the OPs wish makes the rat race a lot more painful and annoying.

[rina_inverse]

tldr|Not a rat-race|tldr

great idea for 2.0

[Viritess]

In WoW's case it mostly just needs to be less rigidly quest based. You literally cannot participate with your party if one step behind in a quest chain. If phased, you won't even be able to see them. Make it more free-form when centered around the hubs, instead of all things of interest and progression narrowly slotted into small quests, and the problem's basically solved.

I wouldn't mind hub-based questing, especially seeing as we already have hub-based leve-running and basically hub-based xp-partying. It just needs to have enough freedom, and hopefully those hubs, to an extent, can be anywhere. If my party and I want to go out into the deep wilderness and have something to do there, there really should be at least something -- it doesn't need to have quests or mechanics designed specifically for it, just enough underlying mechanics (game-wide) that it can be wholly interesting.

To be honest I think the underlying mechanics, and then playing by what advantages the game already has (a fairly vast arsenal of NPCs, guilds, and their classes) will be the make-or-break of the game, at least alongside quests that further exploration and plot in new 2.0 world.

Sorry for the double post but i like this point aswell, and to avoid Text walling i wanted to seperate it.

I think this may be the perfect spot to revamp Leve quests into something interesting and quest based for solo or group.

Quickly, some appeal to me of FF14 is the Adventurer/mercenary overtone placed on the characters. Being an epic hero is nice. But being part of an Epic team, or an Epic Grand Company of Strong and heroic warriors is cooler to me. Perhaps its my disposition to Team work. Maybe the fact that when an MMO tries too hard in the story to single Me out as the "True Hero" or "chosen one" yet i see and interact with 50 other "chosen one"s at the same time seems silly to me.

Perhaps part of the reason i liked the idea of the Echo in the story line was that i wasn't the ONLY one, but i was of a chosen few. Leves Are a good opportunity to keep the adventurer/mercenary aspect. Well that wasn't quick ^^;

What i think Leves really need though is a rework of what your doing and why, along with some interaction on location that makes it feel like its an actual request fron the town/camp that issued it. Along with some story elements to back it up. More of a continuing story line "On Demand"

1- Let us get the Leve quest at the Guild OR on location. Pick a few that can only be gotten at one or the other, but make sure some element of the request/story behind it gives the reason for it. Not just an arbitrary reason.

2- Have us interact with NPCs at some points in the Leve quest, instead of Go here, kill X, go back.

3- Have the Leves be consistant with what is happening in the zone it takes place. Example: Camp near Hyrstmill Leve quest. While the Ixali are at rest, sneak to the rear and defeat X, and then set fire to their supply wagons. Mr Bobbins, our scout will lead you to another target near by...if he still lives.

You could even have the completion of this Leve help the Hamlet content in some way. However its consitant with the story of the area. If the area's Overall story changes at some point, the Leve quests should be reviewed and changed accordingly.

4- Please avoid Leve quest story that makes no sense in the context of repeatable. (Save the botanist Company quest...I'm looking at you) After a few goes at said quest. I wondered why he KEEPS going in there alone, after the 20th time you'd think he'd catch on that he shouldn't be in there alone.... Personally i find repeatable quest such as this horribly uninteresting compared to something like Point #3. Because something like #3 is consistant as repeatable content. Aslong as Ixali attack Hamlet, attacking Ixali suplies makes sense.

Save ideas like Saving the botanist for Single shot leveling style quests.

I'm sure theres many more good ideas for Leve quests. But this is how i would like to see Leve quests in the future. Syill story driven, however more available and anchored in the current story of the game. So people can adventure somewhere, then decide "Hey lets grab a quest here and help out" even if the main story line hasn't guided them there.

[Jynx]

was turned into a rat race not by design, but by its players.

Again I had no issues with the game, it was far from perfect but the system was in place where I comfortably took about a year to max out my first job. Thief, I never hurt too much for parties I made my own I found ways to get experience outside the norm of 200chain parties that people whined about.

Again, let's not nueter the dev team into making a McDonalds MMO and let them make the game they want to make with our suggestions being something they can bounce their own ideas off of.

I did not Ignore any part of your post, I just didn't quote it because it wasn't relevant to my response.

It wasn't anyones fault but their own if they let the players of the game decide how they should personally enjoy their game experience. I had more fun killing Piests in the Marshes at level 50 on my corsair than I did killing Lolibris. Don't like mass chain fighting? Get some friends and go kill something exciting, it was a madhouse dodging the petrify gaze fun as hell to play my job Corsair/Ranger because I didn't have to worry about being a useless curebot because I decided to.

I had all these options because the developers made a rich system that we could play with, XI did alot of things right in the terms of open world design and giving players alot of freedom in how they consumed content.

Instanced garbage has more limitations that people like to let on, it's good and all for a scripted event and specific boss battles but the entirety of the game shouldn't be set on rails for easy consumption. Some people enjoy not knowing where to go next, going against the grain, playing with a smaller or larger group than was deemed required.

Your right it was the players who turned the game into a rat race, but let's not let them win by telling the developers to remove any motivation to grow, to see your character grow more powerfull. To go back to content and smear the walls with the blood of your former nemises just for the fun of it by yourself. Enough with asking the developers to railroad the game down our gullets so we can "Get to the endgame"

Why not make unique experiences the whole way through? Let people who want to skip all the fun stuff and smell the roses do so, but give us players who want to stop and smell the roses and have a surmountable goal take some time. Let the people in a rush cry themselves to sleep when they have to wait for the fairy boat while I chat with my linkshell, (Play a card game!) or do whatever I want to do (bang out a few crafts).

Let people consume all their anima and grimmace when they are forced to actually traverse the world that is for the most part unknown to them, maybe they might see someone having a gay old time and think. "How can they have fun doing that it's....it's not OPTIMAL!" and that player will continue on their merry way playing the game how they feel fit.

I don't see how XI was a rat-race to anyone but the people who decided that's what they wanted out of the game. If anything the "Endgame" everyone is so desperate to reach is turned into a rat-race due to peoples ever increasing cry for difficulty making it impossible to do content without a certain setup of players.

So in my opinion slowing down the track to "Endgame" does little less than give others a option to enjoy the journey while others continue to treat it as a hinderance to life itself, because even as fast as it is I still hear many people just wince at the thought of actually leveling a class/job. You wont and can't ever please those people they will muscle through it regardless of how the devs dress it.

[Jocko]

snip

I agree with absolutely every single word. Bravo.

[Neptune]

Totally agree.

[Duelle]

It wasn't anyones fault but their own if they let the players of the game decide how they should personally enjoy their game experience. I had more fun killing Piests in the Marshes at level 50 on my corsair than I did killing Lolibris. Don't like mass chain fighting? Get some friends and go kill something exciting, it was a madhouse dodging the petrify gaze fun as hell to play my job Corsair/Ranger because I didn't have to worry about being a useless curebot because I decided to.

And once you hit the level cap the "standards" set by the players slam into you like a freight train.

Instanced garbage has more limitations that people like to let on, it's good and all for a scripted event and specific boss battles but the entirety of the game shouldn't be set on rails for easy consumption. Some people enjoy not knowing where to go next, going against the grain, playing with a smaller or larger group than was deemed required.

Yet again you miss the fact that players create the trends no matter what. And its aggravated when it comes to forced grouping, which is what made XI particularly bad in that regard. Everyone went to the dunes until 20. Everyone went to Qufim until 25. Everyone went to Kazham until 29/30. Everyone went to Altepa until 34/35. And so on. If you suggested anything outside of those people started dropping faster than anything because they knew they weren't going to be guaranteed easy kills for exp and because people tent to stay clear of the unknown.

You're right it was the players who turned the game into a rat race, but let's not let them win by telling the developers to remove any motivation to grow, to see your character grow more powerfull. To go back to content and smear the walls with the blood of your former nemises just for the fun of it by yourself. Enough with asking the developers to railroad the game down our gullets so we can "Get to the endgame"

The major difference here is that while WoW and it's ilk supported the rat race, games like XI were designed to hinder the rat race, but people still did everything they could to rush to the level cap. It negatively affected people who wanted to play as certain jobs and forced them to settle for second best solutions. Do you think all summoners liked avatar burns? Or all monks killing nothing but skeletons? Or black mages being forced to solo their levels?

There's simply too much to lose and too little to gain from the OP's wish. It's almost like the OP and people like him don't think of the consequences that come with that type of design. What saddens me is that this is despite having a clear example in SE's previous MMORPG.

Why not make unique experiences the whole way through? Let people who want to skip all the fun stuff and smell the roses do so, but give us players who want to stop and smell the roses and have a surmountable goal take some time.

This I can support, provided there is balance to support both camps.

Let the people in a rush cry themselves to sleep when they have to wait for the fairy boat while I chat with my linkshell, (Play a card game!) or do whatever I want to do (bang out a few crafts).

So your fun at the expense of others. No thanks.

I don't see how XI was a rat-race to anyone but the people who decided that's what they wanted out of the game. If anything the "Endgame" everyone is so desperate to reach is turned into a rat-race due to peoples ever increasing cry for difficulty making it impossible to do content without a certain setup of players.

Which was aggravated by poor job balance and design, among other things.

So in my opinion slowing down the track to "Endgame" does little less than give others a option to enjoy the journey while others continue to treat it as a hinderance to life itself, because even as fast as it is I still hear many people just wince at the thought of actually leveling a class/job. You wont and can't ever please those people they will muscle through it regardless of how the devs dress it.

It increases the desire to get there as quickly as possible. XI greatly suffered for this, giving birth to idiocy like the princess RDM, overhunting, stat stacking to overcome level correction, inflation of gear because of said stat stacking, gear "standards" (AKA if you were lv59 and had no haubergeon, you were a gimp) and so on.

PS: Not entirely related, but while you may prefer to hide among your cluster of friends to avoid the standards and trends set by the masses, I like actually being able to play with the community without fear of being put down or ostrasized for my playstyle choices. If it means the design has to be streamlined in order for that to happen, then so be it.

[Hyrist]

The sad part about all of this is Dulle is right.

Why does a specific set of players want to force other players to slow down? Because they know that this is a rat race no matter how you slice it, no matter how hard or enjoyable you make it. People like being max level, and many will rush to do so as soon as possible.

That leaves those who wish to stop and smell the roses:
A) In the minority.
B) Feeling left behind.

And some of those who would rush regardless don't like expedient levels because:

A) Can't feel superior when the average player hits level cap quickly.
B) They have to share their levels and endgame content with the [strike]unwashed[/strike] unskilled masses.

That's the sum of it. There's nothing constructive at all in dragging out the level content. You can fill it in with optional things that you may enjoy along the way, and that's fine. Fights that are worthwhile, loot that will entice you to stay just for collection's sake. Stories that you want to savor. That's all well in good.

But trying to drag players done for any of the above reasons listed is just fool hearty. We're not in the business of discouraging people. So long as it's not hurting others let people play the way they want - even if that means they don't want to play with you, or play your way.