Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

[Madruk]

The Problem is to have forced 8 players groups - in 2.0 forced 24 player groups for Contet! You can not accomplish anything because you have to relay on the others in your group. Furthermore most of the Content requires specific Job setup (Tank+Healer+DD - try without Healer and we will see your progress). There is nothing wrong with "taking longer for Causals" (paradox, because Causals mostly have less time to game) but in Fact you will fail for sure because mostly one or more just are not as skilled as you are!

Please tell me: How should a skilled player progress in any Content without having the backup of a static group? Not only the RNG matters, also you need Luck in searching for players! Just try it on your own with 24h testing to join any random group who is searching for some help...

You realize this is a MMO not a single player game right? What's the point of even having it online if you don't play with others? Pretend other people are enhanced AI npcs?

Casuals can plan ahead just like any other person. Set up schedules with like minded players and have fun. Not everything can revolve around the one player. It's basically a social test. When I played casual back in the day I made friends lists with people I liked/knew could get things done, talked to them about setting up days to login, and get whatever content we wanted done. Content finder will help those that have trouble socializing in a social game, but even then if you don't want to deal with the frustration of playing with bad players, you're going to have to actually get to know people at some point.

[Jynx]

Honestly that's not frustrating?

I imagine it would also be frustrating looking at the time/win investment of content and knowing that you don't have that kind of time to invest in a single chunk of content could be frustrating as well.

Some people like being able to roll the dice with the little time they have and get the same chance as everyone else to get rewarded.

Both systems have serious issues, drop rate/win requirements can't be too slack or the bulk of your dedicated subscribers will not last long. Too low/long and your casual players are up in arms because they don't have the time to invest in the game that others do.

[Yukiko]

You realize this is a MMO not a single player game right? What's the point of even having it online if you don't play with others? Pretend other people are enhanced AI npcs?

Casuals can plan ahead just like any other person. Set up schedules with like minded players and have fun. Not everything can revolve around the one player. It's basically a social test. When I played casual back in the day I made friends lists with people I liked/knew could get things done, talked to them about setting up days to login, and get whatever content we wanted done. Content finder will help those that have trouble socializing in a social game, but even then if you don't want to deal with the frustration of playing with bad players, you're going to have to actually get to know people at some point.

Why the hell you think i am talking from myself?
Just cant you see from the eyes of others or are you ignoring all shouts because you have your group found? Each day i hear other players cry who can not accomplish anything and sorry but i can not help everyone... Do you really think it helps the game to leave them by and looking away as nothing happens? Beside I was replying because you said with skill you can accomplish everything you like to. that is not true and you know it.

[Enfarious]

I am obliged to also post that OP put a lot of thought and effort into the post. and though i still think that the low drop rate is kinda almost ok, i am adamant that if totems were 100% drop, there is no problem with getting all weapons GUARANTEED with 70 wins. I know some who posted here think that you should just get the weapon you want, or all of the weapons on a single win, but that is ridiculous.

I think anyone who said all weapons on a single win or even 1 weapon/win guarantee was taking part in general jackassery.

[rwyan]

*Snip*

Jynx, I play MMOs for the very reason that other players are out and about. However, almost all the content SE has put out over the past few months exclusively requires a full group. This isn't an issue, but making this content required to progress is extremely hindering (and it is for Company, AF, and now Relic Weapon progression).

No, the raids themselves do not take long. No, the dungeon runs themselves do not take long. I have formed groups. I have joined various linkshells. However, the amount of time and effort needed to form a *full* group just to engage the content is cumbersome. With 2.0, we are supposed to get a dungeon finder which will definitely help.

Most nights I can play - I may be able to do some leves or join a small group for a seals run. I may be able to farm gil so that I can eventually afford even better gear. I'm perfectly happy with this status quo. If I'm lucky, I may be able to put together a group to do a raid or a dungeon run. However, when I can't even continue progress in my company because I'm having a hard time getting a full group together to do a dungeon run is very frustrating.

For example, because of how progression is designed through the company system - it can be very difficult to progress for a player with extremely limited time. It took me almost a month before I was able to put together a group just to tackle Dzemael just so I could continue working my way up through my company. That is very frustrating. I didn't even have an option of farming seals (which are fun to farm via solo leves and dungeon runs which require only 4 players). I was just *stuck*.

[Enfarious]

I imagine it would also be frustrating looking at the time/win investment of content and knowing that you don't have that kind of time to invest in a single chunk of content could be frustrating as well.

Some people like being able to roll the dice with the little time they have and get the same chance as everyone else to get rewarded.

Both systems have serious issues, drop rate/win requirements can't be too slack or the bulk of your dedicated subscribers will not last long. Too low/long and your casual players are up in arms because they don't have the time to invest in the game that others do.

That's where you bring in things like the primals totems, @100% 1 totem/person/win, and 10~20 totems/weapon but still have the shit drop rate weapon possibility. You cover both halves, I can do Garuda 70~140 times and RNG will do nothing more than reduce the count if I'm lucky and get a couple weapons, as opposed to just RNG drops which is why there's ppl w/ 6 weapons and 600 wins.

I suspect that for the sake of relic more ppl are willing to invest, say 200 hrs ttl "play" time to it if they get a guarantee that if they put in that time they WILL get "it". Vs. If you put in 200 hrs maybe, maybe not, maybe another 200 hrs and then maybe.

Dyna w/o buying much of any currency was ~100 runs to get 10k worked out to around 300 hrs play time. Just as a comparison. That's ~100 coins/run avg. It was fair, slowed down the hardcores but made it perfectly equal for all that went, you do good farming runs and you will get it in and equal amount of play time.

Is it daunting, fuck yeah, but it's doable and not gonna "maybe" beat you into submission on bad luck chuck.
Again I'm not saying bring Dyna back, just using it as a comparison of some content that while not for everyone didn't bar anyone and didn't make RNG maybe keep you down.

[Jynx]

It took me almost a month before I was able to put together a group just to tackle Dzemael just so I could continue working my way up through my company.

You don't have many friends in your many linkshells if it took you a month to get together a group for Darkhold...

How "extreme" is your limited ammount of time anyways? Because by the sounds of it, it's far too little time for you to be investing into a MMO. I understand people have lives, work, familly, because I also have all of those things but if you can't put forward the effort to set aside some (1-2 hours) when you want to play then I have no remorse for your "limited time" because you obviously have better things to do than play a MMO with all that other time.

I suspect that for the sake of relic more ppl are willing to invest, say 200 hrs ttl "play" time to it if they get a guarantee that if they put in that time they WILL get "it". Vs. If you put in 200 hrs maybe, maybe not, maybe another 200 hrs and then maybe.

You and I both know that Relic weapons were a insurmountable wall for only a handfull of players. you didn't just "Do dynamis" you had to spend alot of money just to do one run.

We also both know that these relic weapons are nowhere near a "200 hour maybe I get it" investment. You are using Dynamis as a very lopsided comparison, if anything you should be using Assault as a example. Quick repeatable content that awarded you point towards your goals (Weapons armour yadayada) The crazy thing is though.

Not everything in XI (Or any MMO) is designed the same, we have tons of other ways to get gear that isn't pre-determined by the RNG gods, GC equipment for one is able to be "Slow and steady" worked towards and is arguably some of the best gear in the game.

Double tripple balled gear may beat it, but that's because of the larger investment in Time/Money/Chance, some people like to gamble for a better mouse trap, some people would rather not. I think your issue is that the item you want is stuck in a system you don't like.

You are blowing the RNG WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion making it seem like everything you do is below a 5% sucsess rate. You ignore that the drop rates are nowhere near as bad, 20% isn't a "Crazy gonna always lose" situation, Materials can be farmed, (We have no information on the CC/AV chests so I can't coment) But I don't imagine those chests drop darkmatter all the time.

So like I've said I'm not againt the slow-steady way but people are over-reacting to this content. It's a terrible knee-jerk reaction, people don't even have all the information and are acting like winning the lottery has better odds than getting one of these weapons.

[Duelle]

Please let's not bring WoW up in this.

As much as I know people enjoyed it I like my gear to last me more than a month before it gets outdated.

That's what transmogrification is for...

Honestly, this page garnered about 14 pages from last night and the sad part is those defending it have yet to offer a viable reason other than, "not everyone can have these." Anything in any game should be obtainable to everyone in the player-base. If successful real life person #1 has only one hour to play. He should be able to work toward progress in getting these weapons as awfully slow as it may be. As the game currently stands, it is perfectly feasible for someone to invest 4 hours of their time and come out with nothing.

I'm not sure about you guys but I like my time investment in anything I do to have a pay-off. FFXIV does not pay off your time investment with measurable progress. This is not clever game design, it's a time sink that offers no real challenge. For someone like myself who cannot play 24/7 due to actually having a life, the thought of logging on, putting in 4 hours and getting no measurable progress is ridiculous.

Indeed. I'm usually so tired when I get home from work that I have maybe 2 or three hours to dedicate to the game before I pass out. That's assuming I don't have something else to take care of.

The real issue is the pacing of content and how much of it we have available. The players have gotten RNG'd out between drop rates on Ifrit/Garuda/Moogle, drop rates on Darklight, drop rates from Hamlet defense and RNG from Materia melding. RNG in itself is not a bad thing, but too much of one thing and all that.

Finally I would postulate, that the VERY FEW defending it are those who have pretty much been around since day 1, have capped crafting classes and have boatloads of gil. These idiots think they should be rewarded for sticking with the game through the god-awful first year and a half. These are the people those of us with a brain are arguing with. It's like a modified Stockholm Syndrome......SE shouldn't market towards those clowns. They would stay with them through anything.

This is true. There are people who will buy the bag of dog poo with the Final Fantasy logo on it just because of the name.

[Viritess]

This guy posted this:



He, obviously, knows what it takes to put forth a lot of effort... I mean look at that profile, beaming with the glorious achievements in the one job that a monkey could play while flinging poo at the keyboard.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't even understand the concept of attaining a Relic, let alone claiming to have progressed as far as he states, only days after the content's release. With that I have forgone all of his statements past that.

But, what if his statement is true?
Is this dedication and long-term?
Is this what I will get to expect from a Relic user?

This is what the RNG system will continue to create... I don't think Ifrit/Moogle wielders are talented or skillful players, just lucky players. They are sadly mistaken if they think that weapon has improved their game in the slightest, especially running around in that under-whelming JSE (AF). You were given that gear; you didn't spend time and gil melding and weighing options and learning what would make you excel at the job.

Contrary to the notion that the gear doesn't make you a better player, it does show that you are willing to work towards becoming one.

"I don't need to be skilled... I got Ifrit's Battlaxe." will turn into "I don't need to be skilled... I have a Relic" (what I think when I see JSE's all over the place sporting Ifrit/Moogle weapons and what I will think about Relic users with this system in place.)

Far too little steps require skill, far too much requires luck, and those who will profit from this system will gain from this while the unlucky will suffer.

I have 3 (almost 4) 50 classes/job and am avidly working on the rest... I have been working on achievements and quest-lines... I am preparing myself for the inevitable craft-a-palooza that is coming soon, by gathering, storing, and learning... I am working on building a solid character that can honestly say has experienced what this game has to offer.

I have (in a combined 100+ Ifrit and Moogle wins) 0 Primal weapons, and have gotten 2 Inferno Totems and 1 Kupo Nut.

There isn't a single viable excuse for this. Luck is not and never will be a measure of skill or dedication. I don't even bother with them anymore, because I have a lot of other areas to catch up in; not to mention I am a student and work a full-time job in the real world.

It's a garbage system, plain and simple. It has no means of measuring or rewarding skill... It has no way of establishing a measurement of progress... And it only rewards luck, consistently.

I go to AV and CC for JSE gear and that is it... After that it will be for quest completion and the achievements for beating the NMs. It will never be to play a shitty RNG for DL gear or Relics... The content will be dead to me, aside from filling in for LS mates.

If I were guaranteed measurable progression, I would happily grind-out the requirements. There are better ways of implementing content like this. I can think of plenty of ways.

Love this responce, cudos.

For any person to attemp to infer that folks who dislike RNG means they want it easy, yet days after release is "half" done with the currently released reqs tells me that it is not Hard, difficult or somethign to work twoards. It is in random luck. Luck is good for some, bad for others. But in no way is full of consistant effort.

But also important is besides what we the forum going percentile like and dislike, is a good business model for systems that are infact, popular. And the trend is not towards RNG of low percentages. And if there is RNG of a lower percentage, it is backed up by a progression of some sort that either gets you close, or there over time of effort.

Most people won't leave a game they like unless they find one they like better. And there is alot of competition in the MMO world right now. If the intetion of SE is to both retain the current base, and bring in "Alot" of new players to form a community (referenced as one of the 3 pillars Yoshi-p is working from)

A community will not survive if people hit 50, get frustraited by RNG, and see no progress over time, and then jump ship to another MMO (of which a big one is ramping up pre-2.0. And the systems in that Game are highly co-operative, and always to some measure, rewarding. Which propels you towards a goal as you put work and time in. This type of system has many positive aspects.

Easy has nothing to do with it. Luck is not hard or easy, its just luck. So i'll pose a question.

If DOH , say carpenter, no matter level, gear or skill or + of ingredient, still had a Very low % chance of actually creating an item, and all other times it made nothing. Would that be "harder"?

If DOL was was a blank slate, you have no idea where any item appeared on the gauge. Colbolt could be from -5 to +5. And anywhere in circle. ANd you only had a very low % chance to get any item from it, and got nothing every other time. Would that be harder?

And would you enjoy that "difficulty?" Some may say yes and thats fine. But in both of those cases, it is shaded far more to the High % chances then the Low. And can be overcome with knowlage, skill and hard work.

What i belive is that if both of those did work in the way my question was posed. It would do nothing for new or concurant subcription numbers. RNG has a place in all games. But RNG in most things in one game i belive is bad design. And my example being that in most sucsessful MMOs currently running, any high end RNG such as what we're discussing in this thread, is atleast backed up by progression mechanics.

[Jinko]

Interview by one of our LS member:-

http://www.1up.com/features/ffxiv-in...nix-fallen-mmo

1UP: A couple things in the game right now that seem to be, as Final Fantasy XI players might say, are "haunted by the ghost of Tanaka." For example, the Relic weapon quests that were just added yesterday seem to rely very heavily on luck. And this kind of thing is really discouraging to a lot of players. An element of luck is okay, but effort is more important. And there's always the thought that, yeah, if I do this enough times, I might get lucky and get it, but there's always the fear that they won't. Especially after the Ifrit and other boss battles. I know people say that they fought 75 times and they haven't gotten a weapon yet, and they're just really frustrated, and they're upset to see that same thing happening in other systems. So are there any plans to adjust the luck/effort balance of high-level content in the future?

NY: We can tell you that at version 2.0, a lot of things are going to be changing in this aspect. For example, like a token type of system, where if you do it enough times, you're going to get rewarded for doing it that many times. We also have something else prepared as well that's going to address this... we can't talk about it now, but we have many things in place that will address that issue.

And the other thing being that, the real need for the Need, Greed, and Pass type of system when things get dropped, things that are pretty much a global standard that we haven't achieved yet on Final Fantasy XIV. We understand that we have those problems, but with the current system, we can't address them. But we will be able to address them in 2.0 with the new system and the new engines. And so you can go back and tell the community that, come 2.0, we will actually have that global standard and you won't have to worry as much about these types of things. But again, that doesn't mean we're going to forget about our current version players. We're going to listen to the voices of the players, look at the forums, adjust drop rates to reduce as much stress as possible for the players so they can experience this grand finale, the Seventh Umbral Era story, that ushers in 2.0.