When is PLD Getting Fixed So It Can Be a VIABLE Tank?

[Eagleheart]

You don't sub out your 2nd WHM for just anything.. you need to sub it for a BRD.

BRD is solid DD, it can refresh PLD MP, and it can do spot healing on the PLD if needed.

The true comparison is:

WAR+(2nd)WHM
-vs-
PLD+BRD

If designed properly, PLD+BRD should survive better, do more damage, and hold hate better than WAR+WHM vs Single IT++ boss mobs (Garuda, Ifrit, Coin Counter, Chimera, etc..)

We already know that WAR+WHM owns battles vs groups of VT mobs - and they should. It's their role.

Incidentally, the bold portion of your post is the reason for the existence of these threads. O.o Not designed properly. That's the issue.

The follow-up question, then, to the substance of the post is this: Exactly why does the Paladin permit the addition of a Bard, and the removal of the extra White Mage? A single White Mage is sufficient to cure a Warrior against the same single NMs a Paladin tanks. Garuda can be safely tanked by WAR and a single WHM, established long ago.

Ifrit's damage is not a problem against a warrior - it's a problem against the party, cracks and lava pools, Sear. Paladin MP isn't keeping up with that, so the party dies. Paladin's still kicking, but who cares? The party isn't. Good luck killing Ifrit on Spirits Within. o.o

Coincounter will oneshot any melee anyhow, so the argument can be made that all that is needed for Coincounter is a Bard with raise, sure - but a Warrior can, and does, tank Coincounter with a single White Mage just the same as a Paladin. (o.O )

We are left with Chimera, which I, personally, have not gone to. I hear good reports on Paladin versus Chimera due to Warrior's DPS being pretty bad on Chimera, so I am willing to concede that point, if only because I have no experience to post with. I cannot contend what I have not personally experienced.

The problem has never been the healing on the tank, the extra mage is there for the party. Paladin isn't changing that. Our Holy Succor isn't keeping the party alive against cracks or lava pools, nor is it keeping the party alive against Pom Flares, nor is it keeping the party alive against 100 tonze swing, (an unfair test, to be sure, but Coincounter was indeed mentioned) nor is it keeping the party alive against poison in the Vale... nor against any future content featuring strong attacks that damage the party, as well as, or instead of, the tank.

Edit: As an aside, Bards are already a given in a good party. (>.> ) Seriously, who goes to raid Vale, or do Garuda, or Moogle, or Ifrit, without a Bard? No one. ._.;

[Judge_Xero]

You don't sub out your 2nd WHM for just anything.. you need to sub it for a BRD.
BRD is solid DD, it can refresh PLD MP, and it can do spot healing on the PLD if needed.

That basically sums it up.
War + WHM vs PLD + BRD would be very interesting testing.

Although I could already guess the results.

WAR + WHM would rock multiple mobs
PLD + BRD would rock a single mob

Or would BRD's burst damage be enough to take out multiple mobs, while PLD holds enmity?

Also going to confirm that PLD is better/equivalent on Ifrit now than War for Tanking. With the right rotation, DPS is also pretty high.

[Duelle]

You're comparing two systems that were entirely different with one of them (XI's) being horribly flawed. I will totally agree that in XI, PLD needed the DPS/low delay weapons to keep hate because that's basically how the system forced us to play (hit fast, keep at the enmity cap more often). As far as I understand the system right now, there is no enmity cap and hate doesn't decay as much as it did in XI, but feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding this.

The reason I bring up the system from XI is because the intent for XIV's PLD at the moment keeps that design in mind and used it as a base/inspiration.

This puts XIV PLD square in the "abilty spam" area - the amount of hate abilities it has compared to WAR means that there're going to be very few instances you'll be actively DPSing unless you're doing something horribly wrong.

I disagree here. Cooldowns are too long for that. Ability spam would be more like if War Drum was on a shorter cooldown, we had an additional AoE to use for groups of mobs, had probably one non-comboable ability on a short cooldown that could be used when nothing else is up and the class was not reliant on what would count as cooldowns in any other game (Sentinel, Rampart). If I wanted to finish copying prot warriors (which was largely the base for GLA and PLD gameplay), we should also get a proc that resets the cooldown of one of the abilities in our rotation.

And your argument falls flat on it's face. 3/5 abilities that PLD gets focus around party support and protection. Holy Succor heals two people at once. Cover (outside of MP whoring) is a last gasp protection. Divine Veil allows a Regen for your entire party. If you're claiming to me with a straight face that PLD isn't designed to be somewhat akin to a back up healer in the absolute worst case scenario, then I've no idea what to tell you.

There's a massive difference between supplemental healing and the tank doing part of the healer's job. The thing about that is supplemental healing is very much doable, provided you're ranged or melee DPS because you have less to look out for than the tank does, the fact that supplemental means that the party doesn't get screwed if you don't/can't do it notwithstanding.

Trust me, that is going to butt heads with encounter design if they decide to make fights a lot more complex on the tank, which I hope they do. If they made Holy Succor instant-cast and gave it a longer cooldown, I might consider making suggestions on how to improve that part of the design. The developers have to take that first step, though.

It sounds to me like you're just wanting a faceroll tank and a DPS tank to play, and you don't wish to play PLD a certain way.

You needlessly attempt to hurl insults. I don't want a faceroll tank. What I want is a tank that makes sense while keeping in mind that PLD and WAR have to be interchangable, along with any future additions to the tanking roster. And I mean interchangeable in PUGs and LS groups for all content. The same goes for healers and DPS.

Instead, what we have is an attempt at a tank/healer hybrid, which goes against the first point (tanks being interchangable) and is going to cause trouble when content gets more difficult and when the developers start tossing in mechanics that affect the tank during boss fights (which again, I definitely want them to do). I agree with PLD having access to healing in some way, because that does come with the job (hence the access to Cure, Raise, Protect and Stoneskin).

That being said, I'll stand by my point on supplemental healing. Let the healers do their job. The tank is there to hold the mob and not die. And telling me to go play another job is not going to make that any less true.

[Eagleheart]

The reason I bring up the system from XI is because the intent for XIV's PLD at the moment keeps that design in mind and used it as a base/inspiration.
I disagree here. Cooldowns are too long for that. Ability spam would be more like if War Drum was on a shorter cooldown, we had an additional AoE to use for groups of mobs, had probably one non-comboable ability on a short cooldown that could be used when nothing else is up and the class was not reliant on what would count as cooldowns in any other game (Sentinel, Rampart). If I wanted to finish copying prot warriors (which was largely the base for GLA and PLD gameplay), we should also get a proc that resets the cooldown of one of the abilities in our rotation.
There's a massive difference between supplemental healing and the tank doing part of the healer's job. The thing about that is supplemental healing is very much doable, provided you're ranged or melee DPS because you have less to look out for than the tank does, the fact that supplemental means that the party doesn't get screwed if you don't/can't do it notwithstanding.

Trust me, that is going to butt heads with encounter design if they decide to make fights a lot more complex on the tank, which I hope they do. If they made Holy Succor instant-cast and gave it a longer cooldown, I might consider making suggestions on how to improve that part of the design. The developers have to take that first step, though.

You needlessly attempt to hurl insults. I don't want a faceroll tank. What I want is a tank that makes sense while keeping in mind that PLD and WAR have to be interchangable, along with any future additions to the tanking roster. And I mean interchangeable in PUGs and LS groups for all content. The same goes for healers and DPS.

Instead, what we have is an attempt at a tank/healer hybrid, which goes against the first point (tanks being interchangable) and is going to cause trouble when content gets more difficult and when the developers start tossing in mechanics that affect the tank during boss fights (which again, I definitely want them to do). I agree with PLD having access to healing in some way, because that does come with the job (hence the access to Cure, Raise, Protect and Stoneskin).

That being said, I'll stand by my point on supplemental healing. Let the healers do their job. The tank is there to hold the mob and not die. And telling me to go play another job is not going to make that any less true.

(*'-') Another fine post in a steady line of fine posts. Carry on, good sir.

[Zantetsuken]

That basically sums it up.
War + WHM vs PLD + BRD would be very interesting testing.

Although I could already guess the results.

WAR + WHM would rock multiple mobs
PLD + BRD would rock a single mob

Or would BRD's burst damage be enough to take out multiple mobs, while PLD holds enmity?

Also going to confirm that PLD is better/equivalent on Ifrit now than War for Tanking. With the right rotation, DPS is also pretty high.

Exactly right.

If PLD+BRD is better than WAR+WHM at tanking large groups, then it is improperly balanced.
If WAR+WHM is better than PLD+BRD at tanking single heavy hitting mobs, then it too is improperly balanced (which was very much the case before the hotfix)

[Judge_Xero]

Exactly right.

If PLD+BRD is better than WAR+WHM at tanking large groups, then it is improperly balanced.
If WAR+WHM is better than PLD+BRD at tanking single heavy hitting mobs, then it too is improperly balanced (which was very much the case before the hotfix)

Yeah. So, for the most part, PLD is a viable tank. It would be nice to have WAR and PLD equally good at both aspects of tanking, SOLO/MOBS. But with the limited number of skills in the game so far (as far as Jobs go) it would be tricky to balance with current and future content probably.

Raise your hand if you are at least happy PLD is a beast at Bosses now.

[Daniel_Fury]

Last post for me in here peeps...


Rotation that wont fail.

Step 1: Sentinel
Step 2: Provoke
Step 3: Rapmart
Step 4: Flash
Step 5: Aegis
Step 6: Wardrum
Step 7: Phalanx
Step 8: Spirits Within
Step 9: Maddening Potion
Step 10: Flat Blade combo
Step 11: Gorging Blade combo
Step 12: Divine Veil
Step 13: Outmaneuver
Step 14: Sentinel
Step 15: Provoke
Step 16: Flash
Step 17: Flat Blade Combo
And then rotate Aegis rotation, Flat Blade/Gorging Blade combos,
Run through mob to start Rage of Halone combo.

Tip 1: Eat tanking or ACC food.

Tip 2: Listen to this while tanking -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkjK82f7zIg (lol)

Gear:

If you have full HDL set
you don't need to use slots (ring, earrings, bracelets, shield) for more ENM.
use the slots for more MND, HP or STR.
If not use all ENM gear possible.

Shield:
If you have full HDL set don't use Thormoen's or any high block rate shield. Blocking does not
make u a better tank, Healers will spam overcure u anyways. Blocking and taking less damage
isn't really a big deal.
Use shields with STR/MND/ACC/ATK or somethin' like Canopus Shield (+2 STR),
Vintage Kite shield +1 (+5 MND) or even Ul'dahn Scutum (+4 VIT)...
If not use Thormoen's.

That's all..
It is all in your skills to be a good tank on PLD.
Stop bitchin' about PLD not being a good tank if u havent given it the time needed
to actually get good at it.
If you don't really know what u talking about stop talking, you missinform people that might
actually be interrested in being a PLD tank.

THAT IS ALL FOLKS!

I would generally agree with this but it depends.

First of all, I would use spirits alot earlier.

Secondly, Flat blade combo is practically useless on Ifrit and Chimera, so I wont even use it there.

I also save sentinel for my spirits and goring combo. That's about it

[Eagleheart]

Last post for me in here peeps...


Rotation that wont fail.

Step 1: Sentinel
Step 2: Provoke
Step 3: Rapmart
Step 4: Flash
Step 5: Aegis
Step 6: Wardrum
Step 7: Phalanx
Step 8: Spirits Within
Step 9: Maddening Potion
Step 10: Flat Blade combo
Step 11: Gorging Blade combo
Step 12: Divine Veil
Step 13: Outmaneuver
Step 14: Sentinel
Step 15: Provoke
Step 16: Flash
Step 17: Flat Blade Combo
And then rotate Aegis rotation, Flat Blade/Gorging Blade combos,
Run through mob to start Rage of Halone combo.

Tip 1: Eat tanking or ACC food.

Tip 2: Listen to this while tanking -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkjK82f7zIg (lol)

Gear:

If you have full HDL set
you don't need to use slots (ring, earrings, bracelets, shield) for more ENM.
use the slots for more MND, HP or STR.
If not use all ENM gear possible.

Shield:
If you have full HDL set don't use Thormoen's or any high block rate shield. Blocking does not
make u a better tank, Healers will spam overcure u anyways. Blocking and taking less damage
isn't really a big deal.
Use shields with STR/MND/ACC/ATK or somethin' like Canopus Shield (+2 STR),
Vintage Kite shield +1 (+5 MND) or even Ul'dahn Scutum (+4 VIT)...
If not use Thormoen's.

That's all..
It is all in your skills to be a good tank on PLD.
Stop bitchin' about PLD not being a good tank if u havent given it the time needed
to actually get good at it.
If you don't really know what u talking about stop talking, you missinform people that might
actually be interrested in being a PLD tank.

THAT IS ALL FOLKS!

Quick reply.

(A. Rotation

Sentinel doesn't increase enmity of actions, only damage, at this time. This is, or should be, common knowledge. That you can write a post so condescending while not knowing the actual nature of the abilities you are using is both annoying and amusing. (>.> ) You ought to use Sentinel closer to your combos.

(B. Food

No, really? Eat accuracy food or defense food. Goodness, that's a heck of a tip. Before now, we were all using magic attack bonus. I'm glad you were around to shed some light on matters.

Personally, accuracy food is always best in my opinion. <.< Missing Flat Blade sucks. A lot.

(C. Use gear relevant to your job.

Holy hot damn. I never would have guessed. Using gear that improves your primary mods for autoattack/weaponskills, or increase your maximum HP as a tank?

The deuce. All this time, the piety rings were doing nothing for me. I am astonished.

Shields are a debatable point. (o.O ) Paladin is advertised as being primarily used to reduce damage taken, and make the party capable of utilizing less healing, and stacking on heavier DDs. While I do not actually disagree with your choices, your advice to "ignore better block capability" seems to be at odds with Paladin's primary feature as a tank, that is, taking less damage. Balancing between offensive and defensive capacity is indeed a delicate art.

It is all in your skills to be a good tank on PLD.
Stop bitchin' about PLD not being a good tank if u havent given it the time needed
to actually get good at it.
If you don't really know what u talking about stop talking, you missinform people that might
actually be interrested in being a PLD tank.

The assumption that no one's giving time towards making their Paladin primo quality except the esteemed Yuri San is hilarious. Further, your lack of understanding on how Sentinel actually works at present (also noted in another Paladin thread) in tandem with your comment about "not knowing what u talking about" would seem to be a good reason for you to shut your yap.

[Skies]

Shields are a debatable point. (o.O ) Paladin is advertised as being primarily used to reduce damage taken, and make the party capable of utilizing less healing, and stacking on heavier DDs. While I do not actually disagree with your choices, your advice to "ignore better block capability" seems to be at odds with Paladin's primary feature as a tank, that is, taking less damage. Balancing between offensive and defensive capacity is indeed a delicate art.

Actually, I think he meant "With as many force-block and enhance-block-rate skills as you got, focus on shields which reduce more damage instead of shields that make you block more often".
That said, given the latest upgrade in the block rate algorithm, which seems to make each 5 Block Rate giving 1% and each 10 Dex giving 1% (plus the dLVL modifier, that should be -26% on a primal), you can get a pretty damn decent block rate on most if not all things you'll fight.

(source for data on block rate: Here)

[Eagleheart]

Actually, I think he meant "With as many force-block and enhance-block-rate skills as you got, focus on shields which reduce more damage instead of shields that make you block more often".
That said, given the latest upgrade in the block rate algorithm, which seems to make each 5 Block Rate giving 1% and each 10 Dex giving 1% (plus the dLVL modifier, that should be -26% on a primal), you can get a pretty damn decent block rate on most if not all things you'll fight.

(source for data on block rate: Here)

Aye, I was reading some interesting data on that earlier today in another thread on BG. My question was whether or not DEX gloves, rather than STR, would be a good idea for a Paladin.

I'm not sold on the idea, because, especially after the crit rate changes, DD are pretty darn quick to take hate if you're not at the top of your game. (o.- ) I can't see myself throwing my STR gloves out for DEX.

Canopus shield's 2 STR vs. 10 enmity, though, seems a poor exchange, even if you're sitting on a full HDL set. (o.O ) Vintage +1 has the same block rate, and 2 higher block than Thormoen's, but 5 MND may be worth trading off the 10 enmity. Not sure, leaning to no on that one, as well. >.> Ul'dah scutum is a bit different. Stuff is situational, but in most scenarios, my tanking philosophy is (A. keep hate, (B. mitigate damage.

Difference in taste there, perhaps. In any event, my problem is not only what he's saying (partly), but how he's saying it.