When is PLD Getting Fixed So It Can Be a VIABLE Tank?

[Crysten]

You seem to have it in your head that DPS is the only way to generate enmity, or at least, that's what your overall stance tells me. The common thought is that "PLD can't DPS, therefore it can't be a tank." The correct answer is "PLD can generate more than enough enmity through it's actions that DDs don't have to hold back and have enough survivability in a lot of situations to allow an extra DPS over a second WHM."

They're two distinct tanking styles right now. A WAR's tanking style is based more around generating enmity through it's own (and with Collusion, other's) damage at the cost of less defensive power. A PLD has a much higher enmity ceiling and more survivability post 1.22a but at the cost of less overall DPS from itself. There are pros and cons to each, now. Several LS and players have more than proven post update that current content, even speed runs, can be achieved with a PLD and a WAR tank.

While the jobs could probably use a little tweaking, there are very few instances where I'd take a PLD over a WAR and vice versa right now.

[Duelle]

You seem to have it in your head that DPS is the only way to generate enmity, or at least, that's what your overall stance tells me. The common thought is that "PLD can't DPS, therefore it can't be a tank." The correct answer is "PLD can generate more than enough enmity through it's actions that DDs don't have to hold back and have enough survivability in a lot of situations to allow an extra DPS over a second WHM."

It's more along the lines of "tanks generate threat/aggro/hate through DPS. Abilities supplement that unless the design focuses on ability spam." Between cooldowns and how TP works, PLD abilities lean more to the former than the latter. That's why PLDs in XI had to eventually rely on cure cheat macros to generate aggro, as the design pointed in one direction but gameplay took the job down another. It is also why emphasis by players was in DPS gear with stats like accuracy and +attack (up until -PDT was thrown around like candy, anyways).

And I am staunchly against the whole "let's not invite another healer because we have a PLD in group". Firstly because that will bork encounter design and balance down the road, and make it more difficult on the developer's end when they have to design damage output, mechanics and abilities on multiple party set ups that play very differently. Secondly, it hints groups will start expecting the PLD to pick up the slack, and as I've been mentioning here for a while, if I'm on PLD I'm there to tank, not to do part of the healer's job.

They're two distinct tanking styles right now. A WAR's tanking style is based more around generating enmity through it's own (and with Collusion, other's) damage at the cost of less defensive power. A PLD has a much higher enmity ceiling and more survivability post 1.22a but at the cost of less overall DPS from itself.

This is dangerously close to niche tanking. You already know how I feel about that, so I'll not repeat myself.

[Crysten]

It's more along the lines of "tanks generate threat/aggro/hate through DPS. Abilities supplement that unless the design focuses on ability spam." Between cooldowns and how TP works, PLD abilities lean more to the former than the latter. That's why PLDs in XI had to eventually rely on cure cheat macros to generate aggro, as the design pointed in one direction but gameplay took the job down another. It is also why emphasis by players was in DPS gear with stats like accuracy and +attack (up until -PDT was thrown around like candy, anyways).

You're comparing two systems that were entirely different with one of them (XI's) being horribly flawed. I will totally agree that in XI, PLD needed the DPS/low delay weapons to keep hate because that's basically how the system forced us to play (hit fast, keep at the enmity cap more often). As far as I understand the system right now, there is no enmity cap and hate doesn't decay as much as it did in XI, but feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding this.

This puts XIV PLD square in the "abilty spam" area - the amount of hate abilities it has compared to WAR means that there're going to be very few instances you'll be actively DPSing unless you're doing something horribly wrong.

And I am staunchly against the whole "let's not invite another healer because we have a PLD in group". Firstly because that will bork encounter design and balance down the road, and make it more difficult on the developer's end when they have to design damage output, mechanics and abilities on multiple party set ups that play very differently. Secondly, it hints groups will start expecting the PLD to pick up the slack, and as I've been mentioning here for a while, if I'm on PLD I'm there to tank, not to do part of the healer's job.

And your argument falls flat on it's face. 3/5 abilities that PLD gets focus around party support and protection. Holy Succor heals two people at once. Cover (outside of MP whoring) is a last gasp protection. Divine Veil allows a Regen for your entire party. If you're claiming to me with a straight face that PLD isn't designed to be somewhat akin to a back up healer in the absolute worst case scenario, then I've no idea what to tell you.

It sounds to me like you're just wanting a faceroll tank and a DPS tank to play, and you don't wish to play PLD a certain way. That's cool, but your MRD/WAR is level 20 - you'd better hop to it cos I know what job you need to level next.

TLR - what you envision PLD is and want it to be are completely different to the way the class is currently designed to be. There are two viable tanks now - you've just levelled the wrong one.

[Colino]

I'm in agreement with Crysten.

I mean I'm no tanking expert but as far as I know the big PLD/WAR difference is that bringing a PLD along SOMETIMES can allow you to run with one less WHM, which is quite useful. I just don't see many people doing it out of fear (and it does make PLD even harder to play).

[Dzian]

as far as I know the big PLD/WAR difference is that bringing a PLD along SOMETIMES can allow you to run with one less WHM, which is quite useful.

A problem with this is when people already have been and still do run things WAR WHM 6xDD.
Does that then mean with a Paladin you can run PLD 7xDD? (1 less WHM)

Don't get me wrong I love the changes they've made to PLD but with it's current MP it cant really act as anything more than an "oh sh**!!" healer on anyone other than him/herself.

Paladin is alot better but Outmanouvere Cover and Wardrum and still fairly cack. The reasons for which have been mentioned more times than i care to count.
Ex 1 ,Ex 2 And countless more.

[Colino]

A problem with this is when people already have been and still do run things WAR WHM 6xDD.
Does that then mean with a Paladin you can run PLD 7xDD (1 less WHM)

Don't get me wrong I love the changes they've made to PLD but with it's current MP it cant really act as anything more than an "oh sh**!!" healer on anyone other than him/herself.

Paladin is alot better but Outmanouvere Cover and Wardrum and still fairly cack. The reasons for which have been mentioned more times than i care to count.

Yeah fair enough, I understand if you're used to running with just 1 WHM already bringing the PLD won't benefit you much if at all.

[Chardrizard]

A problem with this is when people already have been and still do run things WAR WHM 6xDD.
Does that then mean with a Paladin you can run PLD 7xDD? (1 less WHM)

Don't get me wrong I love the changes they've made to PLD but with it's current MP it cant really act as anything more than an "oh sh**!!" healer on anyone other than him/herself.

Paladin is alot better but Outmanouvere Cover and Wardrum and still fairly cack. The reasons for which have been mentioned more times than i care to count.
Ex 1 ,Ex 2 And countless more.

I really want to know on what instance you regularly only brings 1 WHM.

[Duelle]

You're comparing two systems that were entirely different with one of them (XI's) being horribly flawed. I will totally agree that in XI, PLD needed the DPS/low delay weapons to keep hate because that's basically how the system forced us to play (hit fast, keep at the enmity cap more often). As far as I understand the system right now, there is no enmity cap and hate doesn't decay as much as it did in XI, but feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding this.

The reason I bring up the system from XI is because the intent for XIV's PLD at the moment keeps that design in mind and used it as a base/inspiration.

This puts XIV PLD square in the "abilty spam" area - the amount of hate abilities it has compared to WAR means that there're going to be very few instances you'll be actively DPSing unless you're doing something horribly wrong.

I disagree here. Cooldowns are too long for that. Ability spam would be more like if War Drum was on a shorter cooldown, we had an additional AoE to use for groups of mobs, had probably one non-comboable ability on a short cooldown that could be used when nothing else is up and the class was not reliant on what would count as cooldowns in any other game (Sentinel, Rampart). If I wanted to finish copying prot warriors (which was largely the base for GLA and PLD gameplay), we should also get a proc that resets the cooldown of one of the abilities in our rotation.

And your argument falls flat on it's face. 3/5 abilities that PLD gets focus around party support and protection. Holy Succor heals two people at once. Cover (outside of MP whoring) is a last gasp protection. Divine Veil allows a Regen for your entire party. If you're claiming to me with a straight face that PLD isn't designed to be somewhat akin to a back up healer in the absolute worst case scenario, then I've no idea what to tell you.

There's a massive difference between supplemental healing and the tank doing part of the healer's job. The thing about that is supplemental healing is very much doable, provided you're ranged or melee DPS because you have less to look out for than the tank does, the fact that supplemental means that the party doesn't get screwed if you don't/can't do it notwithstanding.

Trust me, that is going to butt heads with encounter design if they decide to make fights a lot more complex on the tank, which I hope they do. If they made Holy Succor instant-cast and gave it a longer cooldown, I might consider making suggestions on how to improve that part of the design. The developers have to take that first step, though.

It sounds to me like you're just wanting a faceroll tank and a DPS tank to play, and you don't wish to play PLD a certain way.

You needlessly attempt to hurl insults. I don't want a faceroll tank. What I want is a tank that makes sense while keeping in mind that PLD and WAR have to be interchangable, along with any future additions to the tanking roster. And I mean interchangeable in PUGs and LS groups for all content. The same goes for healers and DPS.

Instead, what we have is an attempt at a tank/healer hybrid, which goes against the first point (tanks being interchangable) and is going to cause trouble when content gets more difficult and when the developers start tossing in mechanics that affect the tank during boss fights (which again, I definitely want them to do). I agree with PLD having access to healing in some way, because that does come with the job (hence the access to Cure, Raise, Protect and Stoneskin).

That being said, I'll stand by my point on supplemental healing. Let the healers do their job. The tank is there to hold the mob and not die. And telling me to go play another job is not going to make that any less true.

[Eagleheart]

The reason I bring up the system from XI is because the intent for XIV's PLD at the moment keeps that design in mind and used it as a base/inspiration.
I disagree here. Cooldowns are too long for that. Ability spam would be more like if War Drum was on a shorter cooldown, we had an additional AoE to use for groups of mobs, had probably one non-comboable ability on a short cooldown that could be used when nothing else is up and the class was not reliant on what would count as cooldowns in any other game (Sentinel, Rampart). If I wanted to finish copying prot warriors (which was largely the base for GLA and PLD gameplay), we should also get a proc that resets the cooldown of one of the abilities in our rotation.
There's a massive difference between supplemental healing and the tank doing part of the healer's job. The thing about that is supplemental healing is very much doable, provided you're ranged or melee DPS because you have less to look out for than the tank does, the fact that supplemental means that the party doesn't get screwed if you don't/can't do it notwithstanding.

Trust me, that is going to butt heads with encounter design if they decide to make fights a lot more complex on the tank, which I hope they do. If they made Holy Succor instant-cast and gave it a longer cooldown, I might consider making suggestions on how to improve that part of the design. The developers have to take that first step, though.

You needlessly attempt to hurl insults. I don't want a faceroll tank. What I want is a tank that makes sense while keeping in mind that PLD and WAR have to be interchangable, along with any future additions to the tanking roster. And I mean interchangeable in PUGs and LS groups for all content. The same goes for healers and DPS.

Instead, what we have is an attempt at a tank/healer hybrid, which goes against the first point (tanks being interchangable) and is going to cause trouble when content gets more difficult and when the developers start tossing in mechanics that affect the tank during boss fights (which again, I definitely want them to do). I agree with PLD having access to healing in some way, because that does come with the job (hence the access to Cure, Raise, Protect and Stoneskin).

That being said, I'll stand by my point on supplemental healing. Let the healers do their job. The tank is there to hold the mob and not die. And telling me to go play another job is not going to make that any less true.

(*'-') Another fine post in a steady line of fine posts. Carry on, good sir.