PLD vs WAR: testing

[Zaaku]

In all this, there's a solution that I keep seeing get overlooked, WHMs can DD too, bring 2 for safety let em spam nukes while a PLD heals, they still shouldn't pull hate ever as long as they actually let the PLD cast a succor or 2 for effect. Your pts ttl dps will more than outweigh a WAR tanking in the boss one on one fights.

The one problem I encounter on PLD, is that WHMs are a little to quick on the cure trigger so my succors end up being wastedish landing for 3~400 instead of 1k. Course after the long period of WAR tanking so cures had to be tossed fast it's become habit for many to just keep the tank @100% even if it's not the most efficient use of MP.

In hi mob count areas WAR will still reign because Rampage will stay capped and SC will continue to rape weaker mobs. With a reasonable crit rate to boot heals become almost unnecessary so WHM can go DD happy.

You have to remember though without Cleric Stance on we're all but going 2:1 for Dmg/MP cost, which is horrifying. Not to mention with the AF head piece and general lack of ever stacking any Intel and most WHM's considering the -40 M.acc Tempest as standard issue WHM's are on the by and by very very bad nukers. Sure they can do it in a pinch if the MP if in excess and alittle bit of damage helps. However counting on WHM dmg consistently is going to be very difficult because most WHM will resist the notion. For good reason too. Why make life overly complicated for 3 PT members by splitting the roles and sharing numerous responsible in a fight when it is so much easier to do what each job is designed to do?

[Duelle]

You have to remember though without Cleric Stance on we're all but going 2:1 for Dmg/MP cost, which is horrifying. Not to mention with the AF head piece and general lack of ever stacking any Intel and most WHM's considering the -40 M.acc Tempest as standard issue WHM's are on the by and by very very bad nukers. Sure they can do it in a pinch if the MP if in excess and alittle bit of damage helps. However counting on WHM dmg consistently is going to be very difficult because most WHM will resist the notion. For good reason too. Why make life overly complicated for 3 PT members by splitting the roles and sharing numerous responsible in a fight when it is so much easier to do what each job is designed to do?

The funny thing is that this can be applied to PLD and off-healing. Makes sense, too.

PLD needs to be the Job you choose for HARD hitting NMs. Mainly the ones that dish out powerful magical attacks.

Niche gameplay sucks in the long run. I'd like to see Final Fantasy break out of that bad habit and give us multiple tank and healer classes so that everyone isn't crammed into PLD or WHM or WAR.

[Andrien]

Niche gameplay sucks in the long run. I'd like to see Final Fantasy break out of that bad habit and give us multiple tank and healer classes so that everyone isn't crammed into PLD or WHM or WAR.

I disagree because PLD isn't good at anything else but tanking, and WHM isn't good at anything else but healing to keep the party alive. They should be first choice on the list for what they do best.

[Enfarious]

Niche gameplay sucks in the long run. I'd like to see Final Fantasy break out of that bad habit and give us multiple tank and healer classes so that everyone isn't crammed into PLD or WHM or WAR.

Agreed, but they gave us more than one tank capable class and more than one heal capable class in XI. This game is far to young to start comparing it to games that have 15+ different classes/jobs. I don't want 5 jobs that all heal the same way and equally well, carbon copies just provide the illusion of choice.

I disagree because PLD isn't good at anything else but tanking, and WHM isn't good at anything else but healing to keep the party alive. They should be first choice on the list for what they do best.

If a class/job can only fulfill one role then they should absolutely outshine any other class/job in that role. The alternative would be to give them the capacity to fill more than one role equally well. In the case of PLD that means making it able to DD, WHM can to a point already.

Once upon a time it was my understanding that jobs were meant to be specializations of a class, implying that they'd do one thing extremely well at the cost of not doing others so well. That would have meant that PLD, DRG, MNK, BLM were actually the ones that work as they should. WHM, WAR and BRD all trying to fill 2 roles, would actually be the ones that are currently wrong, as they all have job abilities that spread across more than a single focus.

[Duelle]

Agreed, but they gave us more than one tank capable class and more than one heal capable class in XI. This game is far to young to start comparing it to games that have 15+ different classes/jobs. I don't want 5 jobs that all heal the same way and equally well, carbon copies just provide the illusion of choice.

No, they didn't. Final Fantasy XI had WHM and that was it. RDM was forced into healing (and haste/refresh spam) and SMN was shoehorned into healing. That's very different from having multiple healing classes.

That being said, I don't understand where this allergy to jobs being interchangeable comes from. Something has to give in order to avoid the crap from XI where you had the "ace" jobs that were used for events and everyone else was just fodder. Not to mention in order to kill off what we're currently seeing right now where people go for certain set ups and just lol at others. What some don't seem to realize is that asking for niche jobs will only recreate that once people figure out what's useful, what isn't and then we have FFXI all over again.

And I never said anything about healing jobs that heal the same way. I'd point to WoW and even Rift (though Rift for a while was iffy because of how people loved healing on Chloromancer) to show how different healing classes can work. In FF's case all we need is decide whcih job should do what. I'd personally suggest Geomancer (Half burst, half smart heals), Green Mage (75% HoTs, 25% burst heals) and Mystic/Oracle (single-target heals with additional effects granted by keeping debuffs on the mob). Then you have real choice as far as healers, and it may even introduce FF players to the concept of "tank heals" and "raid heals" assignments, which I hope are kept in mind by the developers for future content.

[Frein]

You have to remember though without Cleric Stance on we're all but going 2:1 for Dmg/MP cost, which is horrifying. Not to mention with the AF head piece and general lack of ever stacking any Intel and most WHM's considering the -40 M.acc Tempest as standard issue WHM's are on the by and by very very bad nukers. Sure they can do it in a pinch if the MP if in excess and alittle bit of damage helps. However counting on WHM dmg consistently is going to be very difficult because most WHM will resist the notion. For good reason too. Why make life overly complicated for 3 PT members by splitting the roles and sharing numerous responsible in a fight when it is so much easier to do what each job is designed to do?

This is why I think Chrian Zabran's Tempest is unnecessary for most content. It's bad for nuking and the massive healing potency bonus usually just isn't necessary. I gear my whm with a double melded Wand of Tremors and the Gridanian GC shield instead, which lets me give out some pretty decent stone/stonera combos while keeping my HP above 2.6k.

[Enfarious]

You have to remember though without Cleric Stance on we're all but going 2:1 for Dmg/MP cost, which is horrifying. Not to mention with the AF head piece and general lack of ever stacking any Intel and most WHM's considering the -40 M.acc Tempest as standard issue WHM's are on the by and by very very bad nukers. Sure they can do it in a pinch if the MP if in excess and alittle bit of damage helps. However counting on WHM dmg consistently is going to be very difficult because most WHM will resist the notion. For good reason too. Why make life overly complicated for 3 PT members by splitting the roles and sharing numerous responsible in a fight when it is so much easier to do what each job is designed to do?

Didn't mean for both at the same time, one remains a dedicated healer, the other nukes and heals in a pinch, but mostly is there to nuke and buff melees not the tank. That being the case that one that is primarily a nuker could Cleric Stance and gear to DD. Cnj/Whm can post a surprising amnt of dmg if/when they try.

Everyone is expected to play in an "Oh shit" capacity in most content. thm/arc/brd all heal/raise when needed a cnj/whm playing a primarily nuke-centric role shouldn't screw them up that bad.

[Chardrizard]

You have to remember though without Cleric Stance on we're all but going 2:1 for Dmg/MP cost, which is horrifying. Not to mention with the AF head piece and general lack of ever stacking any Intel and most WHM's considering the -40 M.acc Tempest as standard issue WHM's are on the by and by very very bad nukers. Sure they can do it in a pinch if the MP if in excess and alittle bit of damage helps. However counting on WHM dmg consistently is going to be very difficult because most WHM will resist the notion. For good reason too. Why make life overly complicated for 3 PT members by splitting the roles and sharing numerous responsible in a fight when it is so much easier to do what each job is designed to do?

Most good WHMs these days are already fulltiming nuke gears and cleric stance because most of the times you don't take real enough damage and regens will top people off easy.

Of course it's case by case basis, but there is no reason to wear healing gear in running through dungeons and most bosses, except Chimera probably and Princess now that ramapge has been nerfed and they take very little nuking damage.

[Zaaku]

Most good WHMs these days are already fulltiming nuke gears and cleric stance because most of the times you don't take real enough damage and regens will top people off easy.

Of course it's case by case basis, but there is no reason to wear healing gear in running through dungeons and most bosses, except Chimera probably and Princess now that ramapge has been nerfed and they take very little nuking damage.

You will only see this happening in very well versed Speed Run statics where the WHM's have found the bounds of the PT's abilities and knows exactly how much healing they actually need and can spare potential Cures for more damage. Outside of close knit groups WHM DD is rarer then Roegadyn tails. Which they should add btw. That being said it is also the truth. With Cleric Stance up and a few gear swaps WHM can dump on some impressive damage and speed things along. However in these cases the group is always going for a SPEED run. Taking a PLD to one of these is the exact opposite effect of what they are seeking.

So yes, you may find a DD WHM out there that could theoretically make up for the damage PLD would be lacking. You just won't happen to find any PLD's in the same PT.