PLD vs WAR: testing

[Doho]

i'm with Alerith on this one, it's as easy to cure someone in a pinch as it is to cover someone. looking at other people's hp bars isn't too much of a burden

[vax]

I think the really problem with pld is the lack of damage. War do more damage but take more than PLD, PLD can keep alive itself for a bit more healing and helping to heal other melee jobs with his ability but a lot of events consist on try to deal a lot of dmg fast or you're dead.
On moogle you need to kill those faster as you can before 2h or you're dead, ok, BLM do a lot of more dmg than war but a bit of more damage helps.
Garuda, need to take it down to 50%-60% so she can do her 2h, also steel cyclone helps to kill plumes and garuda clone.
Then, speed runs, war can do more a lot of more damage so people will want it to clear AV and CC faster for speed run.

It seems that on the game to do it better you need to kill it faster and this is the problem now, pld lacks on damage, but isn't his problem, paladin should be a wall and with this a lack of attack power. Speed run and doing more damage so you can win pretty much obligatory should be removed for a more strategy and peaceful oriented game.

[Andrien]

I did a quick solo test against multiple monsters all at once. This may not come to a surprise to most, but my conclusion was that Warrior simply out match Paladin when it comes to survivability when fighting multiple enemies.

Here is the details on PLD, while fighting multiple enemies my MP was quickly being dried up, and I ended up getting KO'd in the end with only taking out a few enemies. The good; I took less damage compared to Warrior. The bad; lack of MP even with Outmaneuver caused me to die.

On Warrior, with Rampage and Bloodbath I don't have to worry at all, and for extra security I have Second Wind. Basically I was constantly recovering HP with weapon skills, and with the occasional critical hits. The damage I sustained by enemies is almost comparable with Paladin.

So, not a big difference here. PLD is heavily depended on MP.

For me this just proves WAR is better against multiple enemies, and with more enemies the better my chances of a critical hit to recover my HP. I also provided a video, and before you laugh and nitpick at it I was lagging like hell while recording so I messed up a few actions.

If anyone gets a different result than mine please share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-SbBPj6Z0

[Zantetsuken]

I did a quick solo test against multiple monsters all at once. This may not come to a surprise to most, but my conclusion was that Warrior simply out match Paladin when it comes to survivability when fighting multiple enemies.

Here is the details on PLD, while fighting multiple enemies my MP was quickly being dried up, and I ended up getting KO'd in the end with only taking out a few enemies. The good; I took less damage compared to Warrior. The bad; lack of MP even with Outmaneuver caused me to die.

On Warrior, with Rampage and Bloodbath I don't have to worry at all, and for extra security I have Second Wind. Basically I was constantly recovering HP with weapon skills, and with the occasional critical hits. The damage I sustained by enemies is almost comparable with Paladin.

So, not a big difference here. PLD is heavily depended on MP.

For me this just proves WAR is better against multiple enemies, and with more enemies the better my chances of a critical hit to recover my HP. I also provided a video, and before you laugh and nitpick at it I was lagging like hell while recording so I messed up a few actions.

If anyone gets a different result than mine please share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-SbBPj6Z0

Good example of WAR vs multiple enemies. And yes, the more enemies, the better WAR is at tanking, but I suspect the effectiveness diminishes rapidly the higher the enemies are in relation to the WAR's level. (much more so than single-mob tanking does for PLD)

Do you mind doing a couple tests and see how WAR performs with groups of 3-4 mobs that are lvl 50, then 53, and finally 56?

I'll try it myself as well.

I'll also try the same test with PLD, but I suspect it will not go well.

[Soukyuu]

I would like to point out that 2 whm set up is more for splitting the hate than it is for keeping up with healing.

This is true, however if Paladin really takes 3.5 times less damage, then less healing is required, so WHM is unlikely to be the one who pulls hate if it ever happens.

It's overlooked because off-healing as part of a tank's job is a very bad idea. Between sub-targetting sucking horribly on keyboard+mouse and lack of mouseover macros, you as the tank cannot afford the distraction of looking at health bars and tossing heals.

The HP bars are right below your action bar, might I ask what you are looking at while fighting? I adjusted my UI the way I just stare at my abilities and have mob/my/party hp bars in vision.

You don't even have to look at the numbers if you know how much the hits damage you. You just keep your skill rotation up. This is from a WHM point of view btw, and we have to concentrate on keeping the whole GROUP alive, so if it's possible for a WHM, it should be possible for a PLD too.

I did a quick solo test against multiple monsters all at once. This may not come to a surprise to most, but my conclusion was that Warrior simply out match Paladin when it comes to survivability when fighting multiple enemies.

That's right and I agree, but you're testing it solo. You shouldn't run out of MP that fast in a group.

The biggest bonus of PLD is giving melee a chance of survival while taking less damage thus relieving WHMs and allowing them to throw some heals on the melee too.

So in the end it's just 2 ways of tanking, with people preferring WARs currently.

[Andrien]

That's right and I agree, but you're testing it solo. You shouldn't run out of MP that fast in a group.

The biggest bonus of PLD is giving melee a chance of survival while taking less damage thus relieving WHMs and allowing them to throw some heals on the melee too.

So in the end it's just 2 ways of tanking, with people preferring WARs currently.

If PLD can't survive fighting of multiple enemies solo but WAR can, then there is a balance issue.

I'll do more test later on +Lv50's

[Zantetsuken]

If PLD can't survive fighting of multiple enemies solo but WAR can, then there is a balance issue.

I'll do more test later on +Lv50's

I'm going to disagree with you on this, and here's why:

If PLD is much better at:

A) Tanking single "IT++" mobs

And WAR is much better at:

B) Tanking groups of "VT" mobs

Then both classes have been given a distinct role and tanking style. Furthermore, if both jobs have difficulty fulfilling the other's role, then they are actually balanced quite well.

The unbalancing issue was that WAR dominated both A and B. Since PLD could only do A (and still needed a buff), it didn't have a role in the game and was thus sidelined.

*Sidenote: it seems some players may have wanted PLD and WAR to do both A and B equally well. This erodes class distinction and brings us back further to the universal complaints about the early class system. Thankfully, the devs are trying to push PLD and WAR further apart, rather than closer together.

[Xatsh]

From us messing around in dungeons with pld and war it is easy to see the difference.

Pld takes a significant amount less dmg per hit and has the ability to heal themselves (generating hate and lowering the stress on healers), but deals alot less as well. Enmity generation is much higher then on war with equivalent gear.

The thing with Pld is the lower dmg output, in a game with so many speed elements the only way to make pld a valid tank is if the DDs are having to hold back with a war tank. In this case the dds could increase dmg to be overall more effective then using a War. A good pld should allow dds to up their dmg by 15% easily across the board... if that is the case the over all dmg increase across the party from using pld is > the loss dmg using War. Issue is if the DDs are going full out and cannot increase dmg from a war to a pld... the lost dmg will not be made up.

Honestly Pld is a much much better tank, but you have to be able to cover the lower dmg output in a speedrun setting.

[Zaaku]

Here is my two Gil.

PLD has to be able to free up a Whm position.

Between having a PLD be able to semi-sustain themselves but still needing two Whm's because the dmg taken is too much for a lone Whm Vs. Having a War that is completely dependent on outside healing but fully utilizes the potential of both Whm's people are going to take the WAR every time.

It is asking do you want extra healing which isn't necessary or extra damage which is actively helping kill the mob RIGHT now and thus making the fight shorter?

Either we need to get our DD out of the Tank or replace a Healer. Thems the dice. May not be fair but that is how it is. Until Pld can safely and fully replace a Whm slot so another DD can be put in WAR will always take precedent.

[Denmo]

Here is my two Gil.

PLD has to be able to free up a Whm position.

Between having a PLD be able to semi-sustain themselves but still needing two Whm's because the dmg taken is too much for a lone Whm Vs. Having a War that is completely dependent on outside healing but fully utilizes the potential of both Whm's people are going to take the WAR every time.

It is asking do you want extra healing which isn't necessary or extra damage which is actively helping kill the mob RIGHT now and thus making the fight shorter?

Either we need to get our DD out of the Tank or replace a Healer. Thems the dice. May not be fair but that is how it is. Until Pld can safely and fully replace a Whm slot so another DD can be put in WAR will always take precedent.

I can kind of agree. I really just think a PLD should be able to hold his own without a WHM's help, let alone 2 WHMs. A PLD should only need MP and buff support in tight situations, really.