The Problem(s) with Paladin

[SwordCoheir]

We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time, it just does has higher DPS so people assume a faster fight = a more successful/safer fight - Which is not always true.

Actually that is true, in a standalone solo setting the numbers turn out in favor of PLD on the account they can sustain the damage and are given a length of time to actually do damage in return. In a party setting however if a mob dies overall faster with one person taking the brunt of the damage the damage built up from the fight wouldn't amount to as much.

Taking Ifrit as an example, most decent speed runs can kill him with roughly 7-8 Minutes with a WAR tank, and 10-12 with a PLD tank. A WAR might take 650-700 damage average from an auto attack, and PLD might take 600-650. That 50-100 damage might build up on WAR over time, but if your taking two or three more minutes on a fight with PLD, your taking 600-650 more damage every attack in the span of that extra time which would likely nullify or fall behind any extra damage WAR might have taken.

Bare in Mind WAR can actually counter Ifrit's Regen whereas PLD cannot, so when your DD's are running from Eruption he's gaining health back making the fight take longer.

I like the idea of VIT + MND being the attack stats for PLD, but can see why that would be unfair.
War has STR and VIT as well. Which doesn't leave a reason to add MND. So it looses a bit on MDEF.
So to give PLD to ability to stack VIT + MND giving it superior strength and defense (leaving room to add attack to boost it even more) May not be good in the long run. (could we get a VIT + MND materia please!!!)

Actually MND has no effect on magic defense in this game, it all comes down to VIT in configuring all damage calculations.

Why does Holy Succor not stack with Sacred Prism?!!?

When they brought the jobs in they specifically reworded Sacred Prism from Healing Spells to Cure, Cura, Esuna, and Regen. I was pretty pissed about this too because it would have given PLD a bit more utility, a bigger hate tool, and maybe allow them to become a supplemented healer (provided their MP could hold out). Maybe it was some in game mechanic they couldn't fix when it came to the healing bonus when curing others effect, I dunno.

[Zantetsuken]

Actually that is true, in a standalone solo setting the numbers turn out in favor of PLD on the account they can sustain the damage and are given a length of time to actually do damage in return. In a party setting however if a mob dies overall faster with one person taking the brunt of the damage the damage built up from the fight wouldn't amount to as much. .

Except you aren't taking into account that the PLD can work with one WHM and a BRD, where a WAR typically needs 2x WHM.

PLD+BRD+WHM is putting out decent DPS, as to whether or not it beats out the WAR+ WHM+WHM is up to the players and situation, but I think it likely does.

I'd actually like to do some Ifrit testing with this approach (same PTs, all members in AF, etc).. My guess is that all other things being equal, the PLD will have the edge.

One last thing: Speed runs usually means DD are running hot on enmity (which PLD controls better than WAR now).. So you run the risk of higher deaths which in turn results in slower runs at best and losses at worst. Its another thing to factor in.

Test first, QQ later.

[Eagleheart]

Except you aren't taking into account that the PLD can work with one WHM and a BRD, where a WAR typically needs 2x WHM.

PLD+BRD+WHM is putting out decent DPS, as to whether or not it beats out the WAR+ WHM+WHM is up to the players and situation, but I think it likely does.

I'd actually like to do some Ifrit testing with this approach (same PTs, all members in AF, etc).. My guess is that all other things being equal, the PLD will have the edge.

One last thing: Speed runs usually means DD are running hot on enmity (which PLD controls better than WAR now).. So you run the risk of higher deaths which in turn results in slower runs at best and losses at worst. Its another thing to factor in.

Test first, QQ later.

Please refrain from baiting other posters. I would like to keep the thread as polite as possible.

With that said, I will look you up tonight for an Ifrit run. I am curious as to why you want everyone to wear full AF, though. What does it matter what the DD's gear is, so long as it is the same for both Paladin and Warrior's attempts?

Also, I still have not seen an answer regarding WHM quantity between the two tanks.

[Zumi]

Except you aren't taking into account that the PLD can work with one WHM and a BRD, where a WAR typically needs 2x WHM.

PLD+BRD+WHM is putting out decent DPS, as to whether or not it beats out the WAR+ WHM+WHM is up to the players and situation, but I think it likely does.

I'd actually like to do some Ifrit testing with this approach (same PTs, all members in AF, etc).. My guess is that all other things being equal, the PLD will have the edge.

One last thing: Speed runs usually means DD are running hot on enmity (which PLD controls better than WAR now).. So you run the risk of higher deaths which in turn results in slower runs at best and losses at worst. Its another thing to factor in.

Test first, QQ later.

The tank isn't the only one taking damage. You still need 2 whms to take care of the other people taking damage. Those people who eat flares on the mog fight, people who get hit by cracks on ifrit and die. 2 Regens for running through AV.

[Eagleheart]

The tank isn't the only one taking damage. You still need 2 whms to take care of the other people taking damage. Those people who eat flares on the mog fight, people who get hit by cracks on ifrit and die. 2 Regens for running through AV.

That is precisely the issue here. (o.0 ) Well said.

[Dzian]

Taking Ifrit as an example, most decent speed runs can kill him with roughly 7-8 Minutes with a WAR tank, and 10-12 with a PLD tank. A WAR might take 650-700 damage average from an auto attack, and PLD might take 600-650. That 50-100 damage might build up on WAR over time, but if your taking two or three more minutes on a fight with PLD, your taking 600-650 more damage every attack in the span of that extra time which would likely nullify or fall behind any extra damage WAR might have taken..

This is very true.
However the "faster fight = safer fight" philosophy isn't strictly based on the idea of kill it before it kills you so you take less damage.

A big part of the "faster fight = safer fight" philosophy is that going with Ifrit like above for an example.
If a fight is taking you 4-5 minutes longer than it could, then there's 4 or 5 minutes more where something can go wrong, someone gets caught in cracks or plumes or whatever. In turn that makes things alot more dangerous.

If you say Ifrit does eruptions once a minute then your looking at dodging 7 eruptions vs dodging 12. With such factors as server lag / latency which is the safer option? try and dodge 7, or try and dodge 12?

The "faster fight = safer fight" is not just relevant to tanks and healers.

A 12 minute fight is 50% longer than an 8 minute fight. I suppose in some sense you could say that makes the 8 minute one 50% safer, although it wouldnt be entirely accurate but there is some logic in it.