The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Velhart]

because at no point should game mechanics ever encourage the community to use one and not the other(s).

Square-Enix needs to take this quote, write it on a sticky note, and slap it ontop of their forehead, so everytime they look in the mirror, they can remind themselves on how job structure should work.

[Onidemon]

Greetings.

Allow me to preface my post by saying that I am very grateful to Yoshi P, Dev Team, and the community reps for all their hard work on FFXIV, and I profoundly wish for 2.0 to be a blockbuster success. ( o.O) I pay for two accounts, I have been since payment requirement resumed, and I will continue to for the foreseeable future.

I'd also like to say to the community reps who will hopefully read this (;@_@) Your patience astounds me. If I had your job, I'd have nuked the entire forum from orbit by this point. Thanks very much for all that you endure.

My post today is in regards to Paladin and how it still falters in its assigned role. Paladin struggles to find a niche in the current Jobs lineup, and I think it very important to consider that it is not tweaks and adjustments, but rather, a concept change, to bring Paladin up to speed with the current, and, to the best of my knowledge, future direction of the game.

Below are the points I've prepared. (>> ) Tried to make 'em quick and concise, and easy to pore over.


(1. HP
Strong oneshot moves are a much greater threat to PLD than WAR. Period.
Shield block does not proc on 100-tonze swing, for example. Further addressed in Defense.


(2. Offense
Paladin has no capacity to assist in speed runs, and its existing abilities are not sufficient for crowd control, even when not gunning for speed runs. Even Circle Slash was taken away.

Game is AOE-centric, Paladin has nothing for that. Cannot even use Foresight/Overpower, because Paladin is denied the capacity to parry.

(3. Defense
Parrying is superior to Shield block, period. Takes 2-3 shield blocks to equal damage mitigation of one parry.

Warrior received an ostensible nerf in Rampage adjustment, nerf actually turned into a big buff. Paladin's half-a-minute guaranteed blocks do not compete with Rampage parrying enhancement.

If a Warrior is under attack, their Rampage is not going to fade, it's going to stay. This goes doubly if they are under attack from multiple targets. Concept design of Rampage adjustment flawed.

Paladin is no better at dealing with magic attacks than Warrior. Until 1.22a hotfix, it was, in fact, worse, due to Fighter's Cuirass/Vengeance. Hallowed Ground is 15 minutes, and so does not give Paladin a real edge against magic monsters, as it's a 20-second desperation ability, on a long cooldown, not something you use to keep damage manageable throughtout a fight.

All of the above ignores that any critical hits the Warrior lands replenishes the Warrior's HP due to Rampage, and that this HP resupply is inexhaustible, unlike Paladin's hapless MP pool.

Warrior damage mitigation now equal to, arguably superior to Paladin, IN ADDITION to their higher HP.

(4. Mods
Paladin's offense is further hampered by requiring MND as their secondary.

MND is hard to gear for when tanking. VIT and HP are what a tank usually loads up on, VIT happens to be secondary mod for WAR's damage, and Warrior does not need to build for HP, leaving them free to gear for offense, which Paladin cannot do without compromising their already-weak survivability.

Paladin suffers a loss of STR from GLA, further hampering its already-low offensive stats and capacity.


Bullet points, the tl;dr version of tl;dr!


- Warrior survivability higher than Paladin

- Warrior utility in multiple-target situations vastly superior to Paladin

- Warrior defensive capacity equal to or superior to Paladin

- Warrior equip optimization for tanking allows them to gear for additional damage without sacrificing survivability. Paladin must gear specifically to match Warrior survivability, thereby falling further behind offensively.

- Warrior offensive capacity vastly superior to Paladin, marginally less so after 1.22a. Riot Blade is still eighty seconds, and Rage of Halone is 30. That makes no sense. Warrior combos are faster, and still stronger.

- Removal of enmity bonus from Phalanx hurt. A lot.
No, seriously. Phalanx was actually useful when it had an enmity bonus. Now, it's just a low-damage throwaway, or opener for Spirits once a minute.

- Second Wind is freebie. Holy Succor is not.

- In order to actually get any MP from Outmaneuver, you have to pair it with Divine Veil. Waste of an ability slot, since you only ever use Outmaneuver if Divine Veil is ready.

- Warrior AF is useful. Paladin AF is not.

- No, seriously. Two pieces of gear with either straight enmity, or an enmity bonus effect, and offensive stats/solid HP (in the case of Fighter's Burgeonet and Fighter's Breeches) is vastly superior to five pieces with Enmity from 1 to 5, and lackluster tanking stats.
There is a good reason Touch of Rage materia got doubled in potency. Enmity is very incremental in effect, Paladin's AF enmity is *worthless*.

- Paladin is at a disadvantage while kiting, needs to stop and cast magic to heal itself, Warrior has Second Wind/Featherfoot, can dodge a hit, restore HP, keep going. This might not be so bad if Warrior was not already superior in all other categories. Instant cast Holy Succor would help this, an abrupt halt can be managed with turn-to-face-target H key before starting cast.

- Flat Blade's high enmity modifier is good, but the weaponskill itself is rather weak. Strong targets reduce the effectiveness of Flat Blade to being roughly equal to Skull sunder, perhaps a little weaker.
Again, this might not be such a problem if Warrior was not already superior to Paladin in every other category.

- Warrior has Antagonize IN ADDITION to Sentinel. Antagonize with AF head is a 1.65x enmity multiplier, 1.5x without. Paladin has nothing even remotely close. WAR AF head also has +60 HP, small bonuses to their damage mods, and +10 crit rate. PLD AF head has a good MND bonus in comparison, but no HP.

- Antagonize affects all abilities. Sentinel, at this time, only affects damage from auto-attack and weaponskills.

- Collusion. Partially nerfed, but another enmity advantage over Paladin, while Warrior already has no problem competing with/besting Paladin in enmity output.

- Cure enmity is divided up amongst active opponents, according to player testing. Enmity incurred from a Holy Succor divided amongst six to eight targets is inconsequential.

- Stat comparison:

HP: WAR +400
MP: PLD+700 (irrelevant to WAR)
STR: WAR+20 (mod for both PLD and WAR)
VIT: PLD+12 (mod for WAR)
DEX: WAR+21 (Parry/block rate)
INT: WAR+30 (Irrelevant to both)
MND: PLD+21 (mod for PLD)
PIE: PLD+30 (With all that PIE noted there, PLD has a total of +8 magic evasion over WAR. Fellow posters, please do not begin ranting about how Paladin is superior on magic mobs. That number is flatly irrelevant, and we all know it.)

Summation:

Paladin fails to be a superior single-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior multiple-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior offensive tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior defensive tank.

Warrior is still superior in all categories. They might have actually increased their lead now with Rampage becoming better at defense.

Paladin cannot even adequately defend itself, let alone party members. The concept of Cover is slightly flawed in XIV, because if your target is out amongst the mages, your most immediate problem is not the physical attacks the mob will deal to its current target, but rather, the powerful AOEs that it will use instead. Cover does not actually provide much in the way of protecting the party.

A damage reduction aura would be a better application for Cover, or a new ability once level cap is raised, rather than simply replacing Cover as it is now. The central point is that Paladin needs to be able to do three things effectively;

(1. Keep the target/targets enmity on the Paladin.

(2. Survive the enemy's assault.

(3. Minimize the risk to the rest of the party as they attack the target, and facilitate the no-holds-barred beatdown of the target. Hate redirection, damage mitigation auras, enfeebling of the enemy (defense down, evasion down, crit evasion down), et cetera. Divine Regen is a good idea in this vein, and a good start. Collusion falls under this category, but a better idea for Paladin is, again, mitigation of incoming damage for the party, and enhancement of the party's offensive capacity against the enemy.

The latter is doubly important if Paladin is to remain void of AOE damage potential.

Give parties a real reason to want a Paladin along.


Thank you for your consideration. (_ _ ) {/bow}

Awesome dude! But isn't it funny how we could all come up with the conclusion above because it's damn obvious, yet SE is completely oblivious to it. I really don't know what SE's problem with PLD is, it's like they hate the class or they believe it should be just a support class, backup tank.

[Biggs]

Now lets all sit back and wait for the ussual "its coming in 2.0 !" response and be done with it. They never got PLd right in XI (although its better there than it is here) and I am sure they look forward to many long and fruitfull years of not getting it right in XIV.

[ejiboo]

nice ideas; many of which we've all been saying the whole time and although they say they do, SE doesn't seem to listen to any of it. my thoughts:

aoe damage (buff damage ~100% and reduce c/d to 30sec on war drum)
revamp of blocking entirely (although they're going in the right direction. now onto dmg mitigation)
ability to parry (why the fc uk not? they have sword!? i can parry damn well in dark souls)
outmaneuver stance (raises block rate grants mp on block)
aegis boon stance (lowers block rate grants hp on block). BOOM!

or you can give them some useful ability-combo-heals and maybe a support stance so they can add to survivability of close ranged battles and debuff the enemy. i know a lot of people hate the paladin healer idea but it gives them and our current battle mechanics all new uses and possibilities.

[Zantetsuken]

nice ideas; many of which we've all been saying the whole time and although they say they do, SE doesn't seem to listen to any of it. my thoughts:

aoe damage (buff damage ~100% and reduce c/d to 30sec on war drum)
revamp of blocking entirely (although they're going in the right direction. now onto dmg mitigation)
ability to parry (why the fc uk not? they have sword!? i can parry damn well in dark souls)
outmaneuver stance (raises block rate grants mp on block)
aegis boon stance (lowers block rate grants hp on block). BOOM!

or you can give them some useful ability-combo-heals and maybe a support stance so they can add to survivability of close ranged battles and debuff the enemy. i know a lot of people hate the paladin healer idea but it gives them and our current battle mechanics all new uses and possibilities.

The problem with most of your suggestions is that PLD currently has zero problems with surviving.

We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time, it just does has higher DPS so people assume a faster fight = a more successful/safer fight - Which is not always true.

The longer this goes on, and the more experience I get with both jobs, the more I think that this whole WAR > PLD thing is just really just a cultural and play-style issue rather than an actual balance one.

It seems that most people want to play the DD tank, Most people want to be in a PT where the tank is a DD, even if it had 1/4th the survival ability of a real tank. Players tend to get very myopic on DPS, and if WAR outclasses PLD in this area, they will even go so far as to sacrifice a real DD slot to 2nd WHM in order to make the PT work.

The question is whether WAR +2nd WHM is worth the DPS that a BRD will add in that same slot with a PLD build.

[Eagleheart]

The problem with most of your suggestions is that PLD has zero problems surviving. We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time, it just does has higher DPS so people assume a faster fight = a more successful/safer fight.

The longer this goes on, and the more experience I get with both jobs, the more I think that this whole WAR > PLD thing is just really just a cultural and play-style issue rather than an actual balance one.

It seems that most people want to play the DD tank, Most people want to be in a PT where the tank is a DD, even if it had 1/4th the survival ability of a real tank. Players tend to get very myopic on DPS, and if WAR outclasses PLD in this area, they will even go so far as to sacrifice a real DD slot to 2nd WHM in order to make the PT work.

The question is whether WAR +2nd WHM is worth the DPS that a BRD will add in that same slot with a PLD build.

I haven't yet seen a reply to my general inquiry from last page, so I will inquire again. In what scenarios do you see a second white mage being superfluous with a Paladin along?

My position is that a second white mage is present for the benefit of the melee, BLM, and BRDs, not for the tank, be it WAR or PLD. (>.> ) And 3-5x the damage that a Paladin takes seems to me to be something of an exaggeration.

[Bahnei]

I hope SE listens to you and they should...........

When it comes to PLD's, Eagle is the one to turn to, by far one of the best XI ever saw. Though I doubt they planed for PLD to be the same as XI but, it still isn't the role it should be and that's a tank, straight and true. Sadly we got the WoW version of PLD, only difference is in WoW they can tank somethings even though a WAR is still better at it. Was so happy to see PLD added to the game and then cried when people told me how horrible it was. :/ Good Luck~ but sadly they never listen when an intellegent thought does pop up in forums.

[Duelle]

Sadly we got the WoW version of PLD, only difference is in WoW they can tank somethings even though a WAR is still better at it.

False. When Paladin tanking was changed in the Burning Crusade, they were better tanks for 10-man raids (karazhan, Gruul's Lair) because they had an easier time holding multiple mobs, whereas Warrior tanks had to do a ton of stance dancing and use moves outside of the enmity bonuses gained by Defensive Stance. Hell, pallies were even better for heroics like Heroic Shattered Halls.

When hybrids were changed as a whole in Wrath of the Lich King, paladins jumped to being one of the more popular tanks because of how Consecration and Hammer of the Righteous made it easy to hold multiple mobs and Avenger's Shield being an excellent pulling tool.

While paladins were seen as the trash tanks in TBC (mostly because people were having a really hard time seeing them as something other than healers), it was a ripple that became a tsunami by the time WotLK came. So no, Paladin tanks in in WoW were not notably inferior. Besides, if we had gotten the WoW version of Paladins in this game, we would be doing a ton of holy damage off of our attacks, we'd probably have a two-hander DPS option and could probably heal if we set our stats and geared for it.

PS: And we'd be much more proficient at AoE tanking. If you have to make a WoW comparison, what we got is closer to how prot warriors in WoW function, minus awesome stuff like Thunderclap, Shockwave, and the enmity bonuses from a defensive stance.

[Eagleheart]

Greetings Bahnei! \(^-^)/ TY for the kind words!!

I have never played World of Warcraft, so I am a bit at a loss as to how Paladin functioned in that game. x.x Can anyone enlighten me?

[Earl_Caldera]

I agree with your whole post, Eagle, bravo!

As for everyone saying that Paladin is fine as is... That's kind of true, but someone in another thread said it best. Paladin -can- tank, however you have to examine how much effort it is to tank (you need gear, cause most pieces of AF stink.) Then compare it to what Warrior has to do in order to tank. They can essentially full-time AF and tank just fine (Not saying it's optimal, but the gear compliments their tanking style quite nicely as opposed to Paladin which does enhance them, but not in a way that is optimal to tanking in this game.

Also, compare how much skill/finesse it takes to tank on Paladin versus Warrior. Paladin, due to their low HP, if you mess up even slightly, you're done. Maybe not always, but generally speaking you have -no- room to screw up on Paladin. Warrior, you have some maneuvering space. You got hit by that Sand Pillar while tanking Chimera? No problem. You got hit by the Sand Pillar and one of Chimera's breaths? No problem.(Probably less realistic, but I'm sure you get the point.)

The idea is that the skill gap, or the amount of breathing room you have on these two jobs for the average player is too large. You should be able to pick up Paladin and tank without worries of losing hate or dying just as easily as you can on warrior.