The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Majidah]

if this winds up as a new warrior nerf I'm going to be pissed... I'm effin' hating what they did to steel cyclone.

[Duelle]

Good post, but some things I'll want to nitpick a bit.

Paladin is no better at dealing with magic attacks than Warrior. Until 1.22a hotfix, it was, in fact, worse, due to Fighter's Cuirass/Vengeance. Hallowed Ground is 15 minutes, and so does not give Paladin a real edge against magic monsters, as it's a 20-second desperation ability, on a long cooldown, not something you use to keep damage manageable throughtout a fight.

Indeed. Overt damage mitigation (my suggested 80%) would have worked better, but that's because I'm weary of things that avoid damage entirely or grant damage immunity. It looks good on paper, until you realize that it's keeping your job/class from getting X ability or X adjustments because you have an ability that makes you immune to damage (the harbinger of the "plate,bubble,healz" argument).

That being said, the last sentence alludes to PLD needing a defensive cooldown ability. And I definitely agree here.

- Removal of enmity bonus from Phalanx hurt. A lot.
No, seriously. Phalanx was actually useful when it had an enmity bonus. Now, it's just a low-damage throwaway, or opener for Spirits once a minute.

Wait, so Phalanx had an enmity bonus? Who made the stupid decision of removing enmity bonuses from what is effectively a counter-attack ability? Either buff Phalanx damage or give it the enmity bonus back.

Paladin fails to be a superior single-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior multiple-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior offensive tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior defensive tank.

I'm more of the mind that PLD and WAR should be in the tank pool. Situation should not determine which of the two you take, just whether Bob the WAR or John the PLD is on when you're asking in LS "any tanks around to run this dungeon with us?". Performance between the two should be as close to equal as possible.

Paladin cannot even adequately defend itself, let alone party members. The concept of Cover is slightly flawed in XIV, because if your target is out amongst the mages, your most immediate problem is not the physical attacks the mob will deal to its current target, but rather, the powerful AOEs that it will use instead. Cover does not actually provide much in the way of protecting the party.

Cover could be changed to toggle ability, where you use it on a target and it remains on the target so long as they are 10 yalms from the PLD. Could have it either provide notable damage reduction (10-15%?) or have it give slight damage reduction for so long as the target is close to the PLD (3-5%), and transfer 10% of the enmity generated to the PLD.

Anyway, I agree with the OP. There's still much to be done to get PLD up and running. Wish SE would hurry it up, because having PLD as my only job at level cap is a bit depressing right now. =/

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

I think I like the idea of an AoE damage mitigation aura that lets melee party members enjoy the fray more.

I think an Obsess-like ability for all damage could be nice. Paladin places "Obsess" on one enemy, with a sustained damage reduction of all types from that target. Drawbacks may include reduced block rate against all other targets, reduced enmity against other targets, gradual TP consumption to maintain, or the old penalty of taking more damage from all other targets.

[Eagleheart]

I think I like the idea of an AoE damage mitigation aura that lets melee party members enjoy the fray more.

I think an Obsess-like ability for all damage could be nice. Paladin places "Obsess" on one enemy, with a sustained damage reduction of all types from that target. Drawbacks may include reduced block rate against all other targets, reduced enmity against other targets, gradual TP consumption to maintain, or the old penalty of taking more damage from all other targets.

That might be a nifty ability to bring back. (O.o ) I rather like the idea. Stances specifically for dealing with multiple targets or single targets.

Because, as noted by others on this thread, it is very true that Paladin is being thought of as a single-target tank, in a game where it's all about multiple targets. Capacity to perform in both roles is essential.

Warrior can be the DD tank, but Paladin should facilitate the safety of the party, not only through high enmity output, but damage mitigation for the party at large, not simply the tank. Single-target attacks from enemies are rare in FFXIV, and encounters with multiple foes at once are frequent. The old idea of Paladin doesn't mesh with either of those concepts, so Paladin needs to change with the times. (o.O)> Damage mitigation auras, enfeebling auras, that kind of thing.

Keep the ideas coming, folks! T_T Keep the mental gears whirring.

Cover could be changed to toggle ability, where you use it on a target and it remains on the target so long as they are 10 yalms from the PLD. Could have it either provide notable damage reduction (10-15%?) or have it give slight damage reduction for so long as the target is close to the PLD (3-5%), and transfer 10% of the enmity generated to the PLD.

That, too, is a nifty idea, and meshes well with the concept of Paladin as a protector of the party, and not simply a brick wall.

; ; 'cause at the moment, we're not doing the brick wall thing that well, either.

[Velhart]

I do agree that PLD should be more ability oriented tank and WAR should be a damage oriented tank. This is how I thought the original concept was going to be. PLD would be sufficient in safe runs while WAR could tank and perform more DPS, but be more dependent on healers.

In my opinion, make PLD abilities more potent and give us back Circle Slash, and I believe PLD would be viable again.

(Flash: Give it more Enmity and give enemies a possibility of getting a Defense Down status) - I like this, this would make up for DPS given by WAR tanks.

So many easy fixes for PLD, but SE is not seeing it.

[Noblewar]

I honestly would love to see PLD be a job that can do everything if you gear it the right way. Give it 2h Swords so it can be a DD only, Shield and 1h for tanking, and Shield and 1h for healing.

This would be awesome if a lot of jobs/classes go with a system where it depends more on how you choose to gear rather than what job/class you play. In FFXI I remember when leveling PLD the only person LFP was a NIN while we needed a healer and I went to switch my gear with light staff some MP rings and MND where ever I could and it was quite fun.

I would like to add that it could be a fix to leveling as well. I see so many PLD right now lfp and no CNJ/WHM.

[SwordCoheir]

I think I like the idea of an AoE damage mitigation aura that lets melee party members enjoy the fray more.

I think an Obsess-like ability for all damage could be nice. Paladin places "Obsess" on one enemy, with a sustained damage reduction of all types from that target. Drawbacks may include reduced block rate against all other targets, reduced enmity against other targets, gradual TP consumption to maintain, or the old penalty of taking more damage from all other targets.

Would be nice to have Obsess again like the Enmity Bonus on Phalanx. Frankly I don't see why they thought it was a good idea to remove/reduce some of our Enmity generating abilities before they revamped the combo system, we were already having a hard enough time with Enmity as it was.

On another note however (and I've brought this up before) what is going to happen to PLD's ability to maintain hate when the level cap rises. JA's will still be generating the same amount of hate they were when we got them, and if you've been studying the trends with weapons there is a huge and continually growing gap between the base damage of Swords and even the second weakest weapon type (H2H). Our damage is already pathetic due to the low base damage of Swords and we already lack any offensive boosts to contend with DD jobs even if we did have a comparable base damage weapon, so when that cap rises and that base damage gap grows even more, how does SE expect PLD to even contend with Enmity generation.

So my thought's is, WHY NOT give Swords a overall creditable boost in base damage. Would it really kill PLD/GLA to hit Ifrit for 20ish damage vs. 9-10 with auto-attacks? I'll lay out some key points.

1. Increased base damage with Flatblade's current combo modifiers would mean an actual significant boost in hate.
2. With the current mid to high recast timers and TP cost on most of GLA/PLD's better TP moves and no offensive AoE capability PLD would still be prevented from fully influencing damage.
3. Lack of any or access to any offensive JA boosts to PLD prevent any actual competition between DD jobs in damage.
4. On the flip side, GLA's access to cross class abilities like Blood for Blood, Blindside, and Invigorate might allow GLA to participate as a competent DD and breathe some life into at least one class that has been effectively replaced by a job.

Seriously, if MNK's can have the 2nd lowest base damage weapon and come out on top of the ladder due to their multi-hit auto-attacks and ability to WS spam with low to high recast timers and TP costs, why not let PLD at least let our unboosted, single attack per round, mid to high recast/tp cost moves hit just hard enough we can function adequately at our job.

I'm not saying this for the sake of turning PLD/GLA into some kind of DD, it's literally how they're designing GLA/PLD's mechanics to work. If PLD/GLA is going to function at all in the future they need to at least let the job perform at a competent level they're designing the jobs mechanics around.

Just give it a go, all I ask is one patch boost the overall base damage of Swords to a comparable level of other DD weapons, let it run it's course and read the feedback of how drastically good or bad it affects PLD/GLA and if it turns out to be a good balance stick with it, if you feel it needs to be tweaked down a little by all means do what you have to to balance it out. Just don't keep expecting PLD/GLA to function properly when your throwing mechanic/vision disabilities at it from every angle.

Below are some recommended adjustments to the base power of some of the endgame Swords to give a decent idea what I'm aiming for testing. I consider them to be fair adjustments based on the weapons speed, damage dealt from other classes with similar weapons, and consideration of lack of combat boosting abilities.

Ifrit's Blade - 141 Base Damage
Morbid Mogblade- 135
Garuda's Gaze- 126
Mailbreaker- 139
Cobalt Winglet- 129

Man did not expect this to turn into a wall of text. XD

Just don't keep expecting PLD/GLA to function properly when your throwing mechanic/vision disabilities at it from every angle.

Just to clarify a little what I mean by this, in case I come off as a little confusing. When you design a job you usually implement capacitors to balance it among the other classes. One aspect is like BLM where it's very high damage and low Defense and HP, other jobs like MNK hit fast, have high DPS, and decent evasion but low HP, MP, and defense.

Now in terms of balance PLD should be high hate, high defense/mitigation, medium heals, mid-high HP, and low damage and MP, however the way game mechanics are leaves designing PLD with severely open flaws.

1. Hate generating Job Abilities don't scale as you level meaning the higher your Damage Dealer jobs get, the more damage they put out, meaning Enmity generating Job Abilities become far less effective at higher levels.
2. Combo Modifiers for hate are directly affected by damage, so weak damage yields weak returns even with a high modifier.
3. Difference Level (D-Lv) disperportionately affects defense to the point having several hundred more defense over other players is almost insignificant the larger the difference in level is.
4. And coming full circle from point three, sense defense is much less significant the bigger the level difference is HP becomes a more valuable commodity when dealing with monsters with extremely damaging moves.
5. And for final thoughts, stat allotment for PLD is rather all over the place compared to other jobs. MND possibly works due to it's ability to somewhat heal, however VIT for HP and damage reduction and DEX for Blocking would have fit PLD's role as a defense/mitigation tank like it was intended to be, but the job is being forced to balance between four stats instead of two or three.

That's just a few of the issues I'm talking about, basically the systems built to work against PLD/GLA and rather than pushing for a major time-consuming overhaul of the system/job, why not go the easier route and boost the job to work with the current mechanics to make up some of it's depravity and take out a future problem that will eventually come to haunt the job unless fixed sooner or later.

[Lurex]

Very well written Eagleheart. I hope your words of wisdom fall on ears that can make the necessary changes that will bring Paladin the ultimate Tank.

[Hiruke]

Agree with OP. I would hope that SE will focus on buffing PLD rather than trying to bring WAR down to its level. Ideally, PLD should be the overall "best" tank in terms of damage mitigation and enmity generation, while other tanks should specialize in specific encounters, perhaps having a slight edge over PLD depending on the specifics of the setup, but not overwhelmingly better in any situation. Other tanks should certainly not outperform PLD in most/all situations.

[Kiara]

Hi Eagleheart,

Excellent post and great points!

You've hit many of the concerns myself and others have been posting about and offer up some good ideas to improve the Job.

While a straight Damage Mitigation / Defense Boost (in a meaningful way) would be a simple "fix" and partial improvement (e.g., a straight -20% Damage (All Types)), there is a key problem with the way Max Level Content is:

Speed Runs & Repeating Content (due to Low Drop Rates / Random Number Generator).

With this style of content right now (for Speed Runs, Darklight Gear, Primal Seals, etc.), most people want to get through the content as fast as possible, repeatedly. So just having Paladin take significantly less Damage will help a little, but doesn't make Speed Runs any faster.

I would like to see an inherent Damage Reduction Modifier added to Paladin (and/or recalculation so Defense stat matters more vs. high dLevel mobs), but to make them more desirable I definitely agree with your ideas like having some kind of:

Auras - Damage Mitigation Auras (like Rampart, but more powerful / effective / larger range), Enfeebling Auras (like a Defense Down) or Hate Redirection Auras.

All of these would be great to allow the Party to cut loose.

Damage Mitigation Auras would let Melee DDs (Monk, Dragoon) want to have a Paladin Tank (to lessen any close damage they're taking).

Enfeebling Auras (like a Defense Down, Magic Defense Down, etc.) would also help offset make the Paladin standout in its own way vs. a Warrior (that would still have its solid DPS / Offensive capabilities).

Maybe have Enhancing Auras as well, like Attack Up Aura (like a "Morale Boost!" / "For the King!" on the Party), would also be a way to make Paladin more desirable, because it would allow Party Members in the area of effect gain a boost to do more damage to kill the Mob faster.

Ultimately, it's about allowing Paladin some recourse to contribute to Fast / Efficient Runs / Multi-Mob Situations, and basically have them desirable as a Tank for most of the player base.

What's funny/sad is that of all the archetypal roles and Square trying to fill those roles, the Paladin is the most basic "Tank" Role (the ROCK / WALL that the party can rely on to just take a beating and keep on going and draw hate well) that's usually easiest to get right. Instead they're tiptoeing around the fundamental ways to really FIX Paladin and giving us tiny "tweaks" here and there.

I hope we get a Dev Response on this.