The Problem(s) with Paladin

[NoloeTazier]

With Paladin you should be able to have a party with 1 WHM and have that other WHM become a damage dealer. But even then it all comes down to an AOE fest and again Warrior wins. Antagonize, Collusion, Vengeance all are great abilities even without AF boosts. Paladin's abilities require the AF to even be useful and they barely are. 800 defense on a Paladin should be a sexy stat but its not simply not. Paladin will never be able to match Warrior in damage and it shouldn't be able to. Paladin should be able to sponge up damage better than Warrior but again not the case. And the sad thing is even if you have an extra DD, generally when they're melee its just too much AOE from bosses and regular mobs alike for 1 WHM to cure.

[MrLion]

So question for the OP...how does this patch (1.22a) reflect in relation to all the points that you mentioned on your first post? Because I do think you have some really good points, PLD is supposed to be THE tank not A tank so it needs a lot of fixing.

[FuriousCupcakes]

Looks like I'm very late to the party but it's good to see SwordCoheir and Duelle in here, and you have some very good points Eagleheart. I've updated my GLA/PLD thread after reading through quite a bit of this one and have plugged a link to this thread on the front page of my thread. I hope you don't mind me linking mine here so input can be taken on the changes I'm thinking about: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...828#post685828

I did not add any of the changes or additions to PLD discussed here to my page so as not to claim or confuse the ideas of others as my own. There are some very good ideas in here and I hope anyone (Devs!) not yet reading this thread find their way to this thread from mine.

[Griss]

Well said op.

Mrd/war has always been the beat things to pulp type of tank. Its pretty simplistic straight forward and an Axe to the face is always the best contingency plan.

Gld/pld has always idealistically been the damage mitigation tank. The hitch in the giddyup as you so perceptively stated is that the game current does not allow for that. When you are fighting mobs where having a tank is a necessity the level difference math mumbojumbo strips away any edge that there "higher defense" is supposed to give them.

I can categorically say there is currently no situation where I would say, hey we might want to have a pld in the party. They take the same amount of damage as a war. Have less emnity generation at there disposal and are not as self sufficient. And further more in a game where 1 dmg = 1 point of hate they will always be playing catchup. Even more so now that the other close range dd classes are getting powered up.

Pld/gld does not need another band aid at this point, it needs a total retrofit.

[AlphaDragoon]

Great read, and I agree completely. At this point it does seem like a complete overhaul of the overhaul is necessary to bring Paladins up to where they need to be.

Also, I really hope the devs realize that part of the issue (with Paladin tanking as well as most of the party stacking/preference issues such as favoring WAR/BLM/BRD) is that the encounters keep heavily favoring ranged fighters and AoEs over single target attacks. There needs to be a variety, where the people who don't do as well at AoE (like PLD, and MNK) can thrive.

[Eagleheart]

yes I've used maddening potion before, and I've also successfully tanked as a pld even before the last patch, also the numbers only go so far, your calculations can't account for an individual player's skill, you can easily have a pld who tanks well, and a war who can't tank to save his own life.

Making the most of an inferior class is not the topic of this discussion. (O.o) The topic is what makes Paladin inherently inferior, and what can be done to address that.

Can you successfully tank as Paladin? Yes. Is it more trouble to do so? Doubly yes.

Where in particular does Paladin's specialty lay, and is it fulfilling its role in that specialty?

What are its inherent weaknesses and design flaws?

What can be done to amend said flaws?

A good case cannot be made for the efficacy of Paladin by saying that there are bad Warriors out there, and to be honest, saying that "the numbers only go so far" is tantamount to conceding the point that Paladin is inherently inferior to Warrior.

EDIT: In discussing this post amongst my LS (as I have been yapping their virtual ears off the entirety of the day with regards to formatting and presenting this thread) one of my LS mates remarked

"I agree that skill has something to do with the jobs the average player base all having the same issues with pld has nothing to do with skill but the design of the job"

I thought that a good way to describe the matter. ( O.o)

[SwordCoheir]

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I would post it here for all thoughts and purposes just to kind of help outline the disproportional superiority WAR has over PLD, based on some of the new developments from the 1.22a hotfixes.

Not that I don't give credit for SE trying to balance jobs, but something does come to mind that concerns me especially after having a chance to play around on WAR some. I can't really fathom what possessed SE to trade out the defense boost in favor for a parry boost on Rampage.

Most of us know that spamming Steel Cyclone religiously really kept it's defense effect from really building up and the disproportionate D-Lv factoring never really let the defense boost amount to much anyways. Now SE has essentially given WAR/MRD a direct damage mitigation boost which currently already had an edge on over PLD/GLA. After messing around in the Natalan for a few hours, I was pretty amazed by the ability to spam Overpower six or seven times in a row on more than a few occasions even though I was spamming Steel Cyclone on a regular basis.

Now trading damage in one form (Lowered Steel Cyclone damage) for another (Spamming Overpower) is one thing, but parry in itself offers more potential damage mitigation than Shields do. I wonder how SE intends to ever make PLD a viable tank when they keep inadvertently boosting it's main competitor in the process.

[Momita]

hmmmm only on HP and Coincounter?
have you tried after hotfix? just curiosity

cuz yesterday i've tried PLD full AF with COincounter and never shotted with 100Swing... now not say if lucky or something.. in these days i'll try again (after, anyway, we die cuz party member take hate after animal instinct >_> but never oneshotted with pld)
after 2 tries with PLD full AF i tried with WAR full AF.... nerf hp ftw .-. 4300hp without equip melded HP..... 2 times.... 2 oneshot from 100swing.... parry rate where are u? T_T anyways after i boosted my HP -> 4700+ and no problem... but my impression is that PLD take less damage (and casting when blocks is fucking... fucking! )

I like this PLD ^^ now time to perfect my ability but i think now it's a good tank (but some little correction needed) but WAR from Coincounter and maybe Miser (for Enduring March) still better.... today i'll try in Cutter's and in a future from garuda XD


ah PS. don't always use excuses that PLD can't be used because he'll do less damage and then not make SR.... not his DPS the problem then... (and not the WAR DPS the difference) ^^

[Brannigan]

Why would anyone wear full AF? It's really bad. Go to the wards and spend 100k on some upgrades.

[Daniel_Fury]

Just finished CC as WAR tank.
Hate was an issue I was Antagonizing/sentinel on steel cyclone. I lost hate and wiped.
I checked my log to notice cyclone critting 79 damage on Chimera....
Then I used PLD, Riot, Goring and Spirits all hit 300+ dmg on chimera and no hate issues whatever.

That cyclone nerf really shows on high defense bosses. I used to crit at least 400 on chimera with cyclone