The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Majidah]

if this winds up as a new warrior nerf I'm going to be pissed... I'm effin' hating what they did to steel cyclone.

[Duelle]

Good post, but some things I'll want to nitpick a bit.

Paladin is no better at dealing with magic attacks than Warrior. Until 1.22a hotfix, it was, in fact, worse, due to Fighter's Cuirass/Vengeance. Hallowed Ground is 15 minutes, and so does not give Paladin a real edge against magic monsters, as it's a 20-second desperation ability, on a long cooldown, not something you use to keep damage manageable throughtout a fight.

Indeed. Overt damage mitigation (my suggested 80%) would have worked better, but that's because I'm weary of things that avoid damage entirely or grant damage immunity. It looks good on paper, until you realize that it's keeping your job/class from getting X ability or X adjustments because you have an ability that makes you immune to damage (the harbinger of the "plate,bubble,healz" argument).

That being said, the last sentence alludes to PLD needing a defensive cooldown ability. And I definitely agree here.

- Removal of enmity bonus from Phalanx hurt. A lot.
No, seriously. Phalanx was actually useful when it had an enmity bonus. Now, it's just a low-damage throwaway, or opener for Spirits once a minute.

Wait, so Phalanx had an enmity bonus? Who made the stupid decision of removing enmity bonuses from what is effectively a counter-attack ability? Either buff Phalanx damage or give it the enmity bonus back.

Paladin fails to be a superior single-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior multiple-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior offensive tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior defensive tank.

I'm more of the mind that PLD and WAR should be in the tank pool. Situation should not determine which of the two you take, just whether Bob the WAR or John the PLD is on when you're asking in LS "any tanks around to run this dungeon with us?". Performance between the two should be as close to equal as possible.

Paladin cannot even adequately defend itself, let alone party members. The concept of Cover is slightly flawed in XIV, because if your target is out amongst the mages, your most immediate problem is not the physical attacks the mob will deal to its current target, but rather, the powerful AOEs that it will use instead. Cover does not actually provide much in the way of protecting the party.

Cover could be changed to toggle ability, where you use it on a target and it remains on the target so long as they are 10 yalms from the PLD. Could have it either provide notable damage reduction (10-15%?) or have it give slight damage reduction for so long as the target is close to the PLD (3-5%), and transfer 10% of the enmity generated to the PLD.

Anyway, I agree with the OP. There's still much to be done to get PLD up and running. Wish SE would hurry it up, because having PLD as my only job at level cap is a bit depressing right now. =/

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

I think I like the idea of an AoE damage mitigation aura that lets melee party members enjoy the fray more.

I think an Obsess-like ability for all damage could be nice. Paladin places "Obsess" on one enemy, with a sustained damage reduction of all types from that target. Drawbacks may include reduced block rate against all other targets, reduced enmity against other targets, gradual TP consumption to maintain, or the old penalty of taking more damage from all other targets.

[Eagleheart]

I think I like the idea of an AoE damage mitigation aura that lets melee party members enjoy the fray more.

I think an Obsess-like ability for all damage could be nice. Paladin places "Obsess" on one enemy, with a sustained damage reduction of all types from that target. Drawbacks may include reduced block rate against all other targets, reduced enmity against other targets, gradual TP consumption to maintain, or the old penalty of taking more damage from all other targets.

That might be a nifty ability to bring back. (O.o ) I rather like the idea. Stances specifically for dealing with multiple targets or single targets.

Because, as noted by others on this thread, it is very true that Paladin is being thought of as a single-target tank, in a game where it's all about multiple targets. Capacity to perform in both roles is essential.

Warrior can be the DD tank, but Paladin should facilitate the safety of the party, not only through high enmity output, but damage mitigation for the party at large, not simply the tank. Single-target attacks from enemies are rare in FFXIV, and encounters with multiple foes at once are frequent. The old idea of Paladin doesn't mesh with either of those concepts, so Paladin needs to change with the times. (o.O)> Damage mitigation auras, enfeebling auras, that kind of thing.

Keep the ideas coming, folks! T_T Keep the mental gears whirring.

Cover could be changed to toggle ability, where you use it on a target and it remains on the target so long as they are 10 yalms from the PLD. Could have it either provide notable damage reduction (10-15%?) or have it give slight damage reduction for so long as the target is close to the PLD (3-5%), and transfer 10% of the enmity generated to the PLD.

That, too, is a nifty idea, and meshes well with the concept of Paladin as a protector of the party, and not simply a brick wall.

; ; 'cause at the moment, we're not doing the brick wall thing that well, either.

[Velhart]

I do agree that PLD should be more ability oriented tank and WAR should be a damage oriented tank. This is how I thought the original concept was going to be. PLD would be sufficient in safe runs while WAR could tank and perform more DPS, but be more dependent on healers.

In my opinion, make PLD abilities more potent and give us back Circle Slash, and I believe PLD would be viable again.

(Flash: Give it more Enmity and give enemies a possibility of getting a Defense Down status) - I like this, this would make up for DPS given by WAR tanks.

So many easy fixes for PLD, but SE is not seeing it.

[Noblewar]

I honestly would love to see PLD be a job that can do everything if you gear it the right way. Give it 2h Swords so it can be a DD only, Shield and 1h for tanking, and Shield and 1h for healing.

This would be awesome if a lot of jobs/classes go with a system where it depends more on how you choose to gear rather than what job/class you play. In FFXI I remember when leveling PLD the only person LFP was a NIN while we needed a healer and I went to switch my gear with light staff some MP rings and MND where ever I could and it was quite fun.

I would like to add that it could be a fix to leveling as well. I see so many PLD right now lfp and no CNJ/WHM.

[SwordCoheir]

I think I like the idea of an AoE damage mitigation aura that lets melee party members enjoy the fray more.

I think an Obsess-like ability for all damage could be nice. Paladin places "Obsess" on one enemy, with a sustained damage reduction of all types from that target. Drawbacks may include reduced block rate against all other targets, reduced enmity against other targets, gradual TP consumption to maintain, or the old penalty of taking more damage from all other targets.

Would be nice to have Obsess again like the Enmity Bonus on Phalanx. Frankly I don't see why they thought it was a good idea to remove/reduce some of our Enmity generating abilities before they revamped the combo system, we were already having a hard enough time with Enmity as it was.

On another note however (and I've brought this up before) what is going to happen to PLD's ability to maintain hate when the level cap rises. JA's will still be generating the same amount of hate they were when we got them, and if you've been studying the trends with weapons there is a huge and continually growing gap between the base damage of Swords and even the second weakest weapon type (H2H). Our damage is already pathetic due to the low base damage of Swords and we already lack any offensive boosts to contend with DD jobs even if we did have a comparable base damage weapon, so when that cap rises and that base damage gap grows even more, how does SE expect PLD to even contend with Enmity generation.

So my thought's is, WHY NOT give Swords a overall creditable boost in base damage. Would it really kill PLD/GLA to hit Ifrit for 20ish damage vs. 9-10 with auto-attacks? I'll lay out some key points.

1. Increased base damage with Flatblade's current combo modifiers would mean an actual significant boost in hate.
2. With the current mid to high recast timers and TP cost on most of GLA/PLD's better TP moves and no offensive AoE capability PLD would still be prevented from fully influencing damage.
3. Lack of any or access to any offensive JA boosts to PLD prevent any actual competition between DD jobs in damage.
4. On the flip side, GLA's access to cross class abilities like Blood for Blood, Blindside, and Invigorate might allow GLA to participate as a competent DD and breathe some life into at least one class that has been effectively replaced by a job.

Seriously, if MNK's can have the 2nd lowest base damage weapon and come out on top of the ladder due to their multi-hit auto-attacks and ability to WS spam with low to high recast timers and TP costs, why not let PLD at least let our unboosted, single attack per round, mid to high recast/tp cost moves hit just hard enough we can function adequately at our job.

I'm not saying this for the sake of turning PLD/GLA into some kind of DD, it's literally how they're designing GLA/PLD's mechanics to work. If PLD/GLA is going to function at all in the future they need to at least let the job perform at a competent level they're designing the jobs mechanics around.

Just give it a go, all I ask is one patch boost the overall base damage of Swords to a comparable level of other DD weapons, let it run it's course and read the feedback of how drastically good or bad it affects PLD/GLA and if it turns out to be a good balance stick with it, if you feel it needs to be tweaked down a little by all means do what you have to to balance it out. Just don't keep expecting PLD/GLA to function properly when your throwing mechanic/vision disabilities at it from every angle.

Below are some recommended adjustments to the base power of some of the endgame Swords to give a decent idea what I'm aiming for testing. I consider them to be fair adjustments based on the weapons speed, damage dealt from other classes with similar weapons, and consideration of lack of combat boosting abilities.

Ifrit's Blade - 141 Base Damage
Morbid Mogblade- 135
Garuda's Gaze- 126
Mailbreaker- 139
Cobalt Winglet- 129

Man did not expect this to turn into a wall of text. XD

Just don't keep expecting PLD/GLA to function properly when your throwing mechanic/vision disabilities at it from every angle.

Just to clarify a little what I mean by this, in case I come off as a little confusing. When you design a job you usually implement capacitors to balance it among the other classes. One aspect is like BLM where it's very high damage and low Defense and HP, other jobs like MNK hit fast, have high DPS, and decent evasion but low HP, MP, and defense.

Now in terms of balance PLD should be high hate, high defense/mitigation, medium heals, mid-high HP, and low damage and MP, however the way game mechanics are leaves designing PLD with severely open flaws.

1. Hate generating Job Abilities don't scale as you level meaning the higher your Damage Dealer jobs get, the more damage they put out, meaning Enmity generating Job Abilities become far less effective at higher levels.
2. Combo Modifiers for hate are directly affected by damage, so weak damage yields weak returns even with a high modifier.
3. Difference Level (D-Lv) disperportionately affects defense to the point having several hundred more defense over other players is almost insignificant the larger the difference in level is.
4. And coming full circle from point three, sense defense is much less significant the bigger the level difference is HP becomes a more valuable commodity when dealing with monsters with extremely damaging moves.
5. And for final thoughts, stat allotment for PLD is rather all over the place compared to other jobs. MND possibly works due to it's ability to somewhat heal, however VIT for HP and damage reduction and DEX for Blocking would have fit PLD's role as a defense/mitigation tank like it was intended to be, but the job is being forced to balance between four stats instead of two or three.

That's just a few of the issues I'm talking about, basically the systems built to work against PLD/GLA and rather than pushing for a major time-consuming overhaul of the system/job, why not go the easier route and boost the job to work with the current mechanics to make up some of it's depravity and take out a future problem that will eventually come to haunt the job unless fixed sooner or later.

[Lurex]

Very well written Eagleheart. I hope your words of wisdom fall on ears that can make the necessary changes that will bring Paladin the ultimate Tank.

[Hiruke]

Agree with OP. I would hope that SE will focus on buffing PLD rather than trying to bring WAR down to its level. Ideally, PLD should be the overall "best" tank in terms of damage mitigation and enmity generation, while other tanks should specialize in specific encounters, perhaps having a slight edge over PLD depending on the specifics of the setup, but not overwhelmingly better in any situation. Other tanks should certainly not outperform PLD in most/all situations.

[Noir]

Greetings.

Allow me to preface my post by saying that I am very grateful to Yoshi P, Dev Team, and the community reps for all their hard work on FFXIV, and I profoundly wish for 2.0 to be a blockbuster success. ( o.O) I pay for two accounts, I have been since payment requirement resumed, and I will continue to for the foreseeable future.

I'd also like to say to the community reps who will hopefully read this (;@_@) Your patience astounds me. If I had your job, I'd have nuked the entire forum from orbit by this point. Thanks very much for all that you endure.

My post today is in regards to Paladin and how it still falters in its assigned role. Paladin struggles to find a niche in the current Jobs lineup, and I think it very important to consider that it is not tweaks and adjustments, but rather, a concept change, to bring Paladin up to speed with the current, and, to the best of my knowledge, future direction of the game.

Below are the points I've prepared. (>> ) Tried to make 'em quick and concise, and easy to pore over.


(1. HP
Strong oneshot moves are a much greater threat to PLD than WAR. Period.
Shield block does not proc on 100-tonze swing, for example. Further addressed in Defense.


(2. Offense
Paladin has no capacity to assist in speed runs, and its existing abilities are not sufficient for crowd control, even when not gunning for speed runs. Even Circle Slash was taken away.

Game is AOE-centric, Paladin has nothing for that. Cannot even use Foresight/Overpower, because Paladin is denied the capacity to parry.

(3. Defense
Parrying is superior to Shield block, period. Takes 2-3 shield blocks to equal damage mitigation of one parry.

Warrior received an ostensible nerf in Rampage adjustment, nerf actually turned into a big buff. Paladin's half-a-minute guaranteed blocks do not compete with Rampage parrying enhancement.

If a Warrior is under attack, their Rampage is not going to fade, it's going to stay. This goes doubly if they are under attack from multiple targets. Concept design of Rampage adjustment flawed.

Paladin is no better at dealing with magic attacks than Warrior. Until 1.22a hotfix, it was, in fact, worse, due to Fighter's Cuirass/Vengeance. Hallowed Ground is 15 minutes, and so does not give Paladin a real edge against magic monsters, as it's a 20-second desperation ability, on a long cooldown, not something you use to keep damage manageable throughtout a fight.

All of the above ignores that any critical hits the Warrior lands replenishes the Warrior's HP due to Rampage, and that this HP resupply is inexhaustible, unlike Paladin's hapless MP pool.

Warrior damage mitigation now equal to, arguably superior to Paladin, IN ADDITION to their higher HP.

(4. Mods
Paladin's offense is further hampered by requiring MND as their secondary.

MND is hard to gear for when tanking. VIT and HP are what a tank usually loads up on, VIT happens to be secondary mod for WAR's damage, and Warrior does not need to build for HP, leaving them free to gear for offense, which Paladin cannot do without compromising their already-weak survivability.

Paladin suffers a loss of STR from GLA, further hampering its already-low offensive stats and capacity.


Bullet points, the tl;dr version of tl;dr!


- Warrior survivability higher than Paladin

- Warrior utility in multiple-target situations vastly superior to Paladin

- Warrior defensive capacity equal to or superior to Paladin

- Warrior equip optimization for tanking allows them to gear for additional damage without sacrificing survivability. Paladin must gear specifically to match Warrior survivability, thereby falling further behind offensively.

- Warrior offensive capacity vastly superior to Paladin, marginally less so after 1.22a. Riot Blade is still eighty seconds, and Rage of Halone is 30. That makes no sense. Warrior combos are faster, and still stronger.

- Removal of enmity bonus from Phalanx hurt. A lot.
No, seriously. Phalanx was actually useful when it had an enmity bonus. Now, it's just a low-damage throwaway, or opener for Spirits once a minute.

- Second Wind is freebie. Holy Succor is not.

- In order to actually get any MP from Outmaneuver, you have to pair it with Divine Veil. Waste of an ability slot, since you only ever use Outmaneuver if Divine Veil is ready.

- Warrior AF is useful. Paladin AF is not.

- No, seriously. Two pieces of gear with either straight enmity, or an enmity bonus effect, and offensive stats/solid HP (in the case of Fighter's Burgeonet and Fighter's Breeches) is vastly superior to five pieces with Enmity from 1 to 5, and lackluster tanking stats.
There is a good reason Touch of Rage materia got doubled in potency. Enmity is very incremental in effect, Paladin's AF enmity is *worthless*.

- Paladin is at a disadvantage while kiting, needs to stop and cast magic to heal itself, Warrior has Second Wind/Featherfoot, can dodge a hit, restore HP, keep going. This might not be so bad if Warrior was not already superior in all other categories. Instant cast Holy Succor would help this, an abrupt halt can be managed with turn-to-face-target H key before starting cast.

- Flat Blade's high enmity modifier is good, but the weaponskill itself is rather weak. Strong targets reduce the effectiveness of Flat Blade to being roughly equal to Skull sunder, perhaps a little weaker.
Again, this might not be such a problem if Warrior was not already superior to Paladin in every other category.

- Warrior has Antagonize IN ADDITION to Sentinel. Antagonize with AF head is a 1.65x enmity multiplier, 1.5x without. Paladin has nothing even remotely close. WAR AF head also has +60 HP, small bonuses to their damage mods, and +10 crit rate. PLD AF head has a good MND bonus in comparison, but no HP.

- Antagonize affects all abilities. Sentinel, at this time, only affects damage from auto-attack and weaponskills.

- Collusion. Partially nerfed, but another enmity advantage over Paladin, while Warrior already has no problem competing with/besting Paladin in enmity output.

- Cure enmity is divided up amongst active opponents, according to player testing. Enmity incurred from a Holy Succor divided amongst six to eight targets is inconsequential.

- Stat comparison:

HP: WAR +400
MP: PLD+700 (irrelevant to WAR)
STR: WAR+20 (mod for both PLD and WAR)
VIT: PLD+12 (mod for WAR)
DEX: WAR+21 (Parry/block rate)
INT: WAR+30 (Irrelevant to both)
MND: PLD+21 (mod for PLD)
PIE: PLD+30 (With all that PIE noted there, PLD has a total of +8 magic evasion over WAR. Fellow posters, please do not begin ranting about how Paladin is superior on magic mobs. That number is flatly irrelevant, and we all know it.)

Summation:

Paladin fails to be a superior single-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior multiple-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior offensive tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior defensive tank.

Warrior is still superior in all categories. They might have actually increased their lead now with Rampage becoming better at defense.

Paladin cannot even adequately defend itself, let alone party members. The concept of Cover is slightly flawed in XIV, because if your target is out amongst the mages, your most immediate problem is not the physical attacks the mob will deal to its current target, but rather, the powerful AOEs that it will use instead. Cover does not actually provide much in the way of protecting the party.

A damage reduction aura would be a better application for Cover, or a new ability once level cap is raised, rather than simply replacing Cover as it is now. The central point is that Paladin needs to be able to do three things effectively;

(1. Keep the target/targets enmity on the Paladin.

(2. Survive the enemy's assault.

(3. Minimize the risk to the rest of the party as they attack the target, and facilitate the no-holds-barred beatdown of the target. Hate redirection, damage mitigation auras, enfeebling of the enemy (defense down, evasion down, crit evasion down), et cetera. Divine Regen is a good idea in this vein, and a good start. Collusion falls under this category, but a better idea for Paladin is, again, mitigation of incoming damage for the party, and enhancement of the party's offensive capacity against the enemy.

The latter is doubly important if Paladin is to remain void of AOE damage potential.

Give parties a real reason to want a Paladin along.


Thank you for your consideration. (_ _ ) {/bow}

Quick fix for Palladin. Give a holy buff/skill to the sword. And throw some undead mobs/ bosses.

There is no other way around. Anything beyond that will make other classes suck with all nerfs and the bitching won't ever stop. That what other MMO's I played had to do to make paladin worth being in a party.