Elemental Spell Reform

[Enfarious]

So your going to quit because the Devs are not bowing down to you and kissing your feet? Since you're a Lalafell it might be a little difficult, especially if one of them are a Roegadyn, he'll have to lay on his stomach, and he'd be able to fit your entire leg into his mouth.

If that's your attitude, then quit. Whether the change it or not, doesn't matter, it's a game, it can be justified in many ways, and it's the content that's important relative to the set up.

This is a very "Which came first the chicken or the egg." argument, content should be tailored around jobs, jobs should be tailored around content ...
Noone is likely to find a winning side, but leaving us with so few options is pretty bleh, not just on magey jobs, on all of them, spamming the same 5~6 abils and occasionally(90+ seconds only worth using in specific fights) peppering in another 4~5 is really not great class/job design, it's good for people that can't figure out how to macro or change action bars, but this whole "We're working in the 30 total ability for the life of the game limit" leads to a bit of wtf.

Two, points I agree with.



I think they're pretty tightly married to the 15+10 abilities for class and 15+5+5 abilities for jobs. Knowing that, why don't you theory craft how you would set up Thm/blm ability list? At least it's not just ranting with an idea here and there, put it all in one package.

Isn't this kind of the problem, some jobs got crazy gimped by the stripping of abils from them, while others came away relatively unscathed and still others came away OPd. Having so few abils in a RPG of any kind just seems wrong as hell maybe it's just cause I grew up on FFs and they all have hundreds of different abils/spells to work with.

[Vaymathias]

This is a very "Which came first the chicken or the egg." argument, content should be tailored around jobs, jobs should be tailored around content ...

Your missing my point. The content of the game was made for a different version of THM/BLM. One that has access to all of the elements. The current incarnation of THM/BLM doesn't, so the content should take that into consideration. It's a small consideration too, knowing that it's fire/lightning/ice, tailoring enemy strengths/weaknesses/absorbs/special reactions to those three is small, and in any game considerations like that are made.

If you want THM/BLM to be weak to a specific enemy, make that enemy have no elemental weakness, neutral to all or certain elements with high magic defense, or some special effect like absorbs x element(s).

It's similar for when you want THM/BLM to be the optimum choice.

Possibly even have multi-tiered enemies, for example, a mechanical based enemy that absorbs lightning, resistant to ice, but Fire melts it's outer shell. The for the second tier, it could be something like lightning now overcharges the enemy healing it initially, but causes MASSIVE damage down the line, or in the spirit of co-operation, once the armor is melted it's physical defense is drastically reduced.

Aspects like this are more tactical related. It's not as simple as the wheel, is not really complex, but requires knowledge of specific enemies (I'm also hoping for an in game encyclopedia that reveals this information, but that's another issue).

Noone is likely to find a winning side, but leaving us with so few options is pretty bleh, not just on magey jobs, on all of them, spamming the same 5~6 abils and occasionally(90+ seconds only worth using in specific fights) peppering in another 4~5 is really not great class/job design, it's good for people that can't figure out how to macro or change action bars, but this whole "We're working in the 30 total ability for the life of the game limit" leads to a bit of wtf.

I'm torn on this myself. While it's not so limiting for the melees, since they could use the positioning system more, and the chaining system more, like have a weapon skill that changes effects based on the weapon skill used just before it, it's very limiting on the mages. No enfeebling only spells, limited versions of an element (fire, fira, firaga).

For melees, it's the first time I've seen so many different weapon skills being used. Most games it's X, Y, and Z after you've unlocked them, and ignoring A through W. At least with the chain system most of them are being used, even if it is only in a chain.

But at the same time, I like the limit. Having all of your abilities at your disposal all the time is great.

But like I said, if they insist to sticking with the current ability limit, ya have to work with it. Just screaming that the whole system is garbage while others like it, then the discussion will no where.

Isn't this kind of the problem, some jobs got crazy gimped by the stripping of abils from them, while others came away relatively unscathed and still others came away OPd. Having so few abils in a RPG of any kind just seems wrong as hell maybe it's just cause I grew up on FFs and they all have hundreds of different abils/spells to work with.

Obviously if each class/job has the same number of skills, and yet one of them is overpowered, then it's due to the specifics of those abilities or of the class/job, not PLD is gimp because it NEEDS 2 more abilities than war.

I wouldn't say hundreds, a lot yes, maybe a couple, or a few dozen.

Just for point of reference on earlier BLM's....

Final Fantasy I Black Mage
No wind or water. Quake is there, but is an instant kill attack. Fire, Blizzard, and Thunder are all tiered.

Final Fantasy III Black Mage
On it's spell list, there's no wind or water elements. There is Quake, though the only multi tiered elements are Fire, Blizzard, and Thunder.

FF IV Rydia
She has Quake, AND Tornado, but still not tiered. Also, Quake is non-elemental damage and Tornado isn't a normal damage dealing spell. And Tiers of Fire/Blizzard/Thunder are present.

FF IV Palom
Same as Rydia.

Final Fantasy IV: The After Years Black Mage
Only Fire, Blizzard, and Ice.

Final Fantasy V Black Mage
Again, no wind or water. Strange that Quake is missing, and Fire, Blizzard and Thunder are all tiered.

Balance for those jobs weren't so much of an issue, since it was a single player game and they were all player controlled, but they were still balanced pretty well with a few exceptions. How is it that this set up worked? They took the Black Mage spells into account when developing/balancing the content.

[Enfarious]

Your missing my point. The content of the game was made for a different version of THM/BLM. One that has access to all of the elements. The current incarnation of THM/BLM doesn't, so the content should take that into consideration. It's a small consideration too, knowing that it's fire/lightning/ice, tailoring enemy strengths/weaknesses/absorbs/special reactions to those three is small, and in any game considerations like that are made...

I'm sorry there's alot more and I want to kinda avoid a super wall.
That was actually my point in a round about way, the orig game design, classes jobs content were designed in a particular way, they revamped the classes/jobs but continue to design the content for the old, most likely because there's a framework for scripts that would be a nightmare to tear down and rebuild. The old abilities are all still present, enemies still use them against us, and they're still in the dats, they just stopped us from accessing them.

For melees, it's the first time I've seen so many different weapon skills being used. Most games it's X, Y, and Z after you've unlocked them, and ignoring A through W. At least with the chain system most of them are being used, even if it is only in a chain.

I have to agree it is nice that i still use the WSs I got in the beginning, the only thing I don't like about it is the other abils don't have alot of use on some jobs, yeah I could spam powersurge OR lifesurge but why waste the TP, and so on.
In XI w/ some 150 spells/abils I rarely had trouble using them all, I'm not saying I need/want that many, but our current setup kinda doesn't provide much by way of choices. You cast A before B before C, You don't use B or C alone because it's a waste of TP/MP/Recast/breaks a combo. So really they've removed still more choice.

But like I said, if they insist to sticking with the current ability limit, ya have to work with it. Just screaming that the whole system is garbage while others like it, then the discussion will no where.

If we all just take it as what it is and noone says anything then it WON'T get changed, at least by saying something we express that we aren't pleased with what it is now, and that we preferred the old system, or some in between place. I'm not saying it's all bad, but it's not all good at all.

Obviously if each class/job has the same number of skills, and yet one of them is overpowered, then it's due to the specifics of those abilities or of the class/job, not PLD is gimp because it NEEDS 2 more abilities than war.

I wouldn't say hundreds, a lot yes, maybe a couple, or a few dozen.

I didn't mean that one job having more/less abils made it OP/UP the OP/UP thing is a ability balance issue that is far more to do w/ how stats play in and what the abil/spell does in the first place.

I didn't mean to say I need/want hundreds/job, but 25 and at the current growth rate never more than 30 because of the bar. That is less than the button mashing combos in fighting/adventure games.

To point at past FFs not one of them, even the tactics advance and Mystic quest games made for a younger crowd had only 25 abils on any job @level 50. Yes they often had Fire/Ice/Lit I/II/III Poison/Bio/Break/Dia/Slow/Stop/Freeze/Quake/Flood/Blind ... Most of them offered an AoE switch or an AoE series of the same for the ele spells, many also added Water/Aero/Stone I can't think of any that had < 8 summons, many with more than a dozen. That's ignoring chars like Gau/Tellah/Mimic who had such large spell/abil lists or such unique ones that you needed a pause to scroll the whole of them. Why should we encourage SE to take this softer/easier route.