Elemental Spell Reform

[Geabrielle]

Alright, this isn't to start a ruckus but it has to be asked...

If any of you arguing for spell reform ever played FF11, did you really ... honestly .. TRULY use anything OTHER than the Thunder or Blizzard line. Be truthful.

I was a career BLM and took pride in having full access to all of the elements. I even tried to make use of them as the situation demanded and know what? "Thunder -- or Bliz -- are better, only use those for higher damage output ok?" The only time I used Aero-Tornado was Kirin. Only time I bothered with Water .. uhm... yeah. Or the lucky playing with the Fire line... uhmm yeah. For a moment I just realized I never even bothered to remember I had earth-based nukes save on that eyeball BCNM. I had a massive spell list that was 95% wasted. Yes I know FF11 is NOT the only FF game but it was the first FF MMO and they are most probably taking cue from the player base usage data in building this one on -some- things.

This being pointed out, it is also very classic FF to be restricted to those three spheres as a BLM/THM and I see no issue with it outside of the duration of the enfeebling effects outside of combo as well as the rate of resistance building by the mobs. I have a lighter spell list, I have to choose how and when to apply what I have to the best effect. I like it.
However, I do agree that I am annoyed that only the fire-line is AOE and isn't very cost effective but then again AoEs have always had that pitfall, ne?

Here is where I expect pitchforks : Conj/WHM do NOT need freaking astral based spells. They are NOT holy priests in any sense in this particular FF. Conjurers are liaisons if anything and WHM are a step up in harnessing elemental granted magic to bring succor. EI they are given access to the healing abilities of water rather than it's more destructive aspect. I don't see why they even gave WHM Holy ... it's has no real usage, it should have been Reraise or something instead.

So do we need the full elemental wheel as thms/blms? Honestly, no. Would it be nice? Perhaps. I'd rather fully explore my capacity as a blm with what I have first before asking for any more due to the restrictive spaces of the action bar. ( I hate the action bar thing btw. Hate hate HATE. But one must adapt, ne?)

[Jinrya-Geki]

Alright, this isn't to start a ruckus but it has to be asked...

If any of you arguing for spell reform ever played FF11, did you really ... honestly .. TRULY use anything OTHER than the Thunder or Blizzard line. Be truthful.

I was a career BLM and took pride in having full access to all of the elements. I even tried to make use of them as the situation demanded and know what? "Thunder -- or Bliz -- are better, only use those for higher damage output ok?" The only time I used Aero-Tornado was Kirin. Only time I bothered with Water .. uhm... yeah. Or the lucky playing with the Fire line... uhmm yeah. For a moment I just realized I never even bothered to remember I had earth-based nukes save on that eyeball BCNM. I had a massive spell list that was 95% wasted. Yes I know FF11 is NOT the only FF game but it was the first FF MMO and they are most probably taking cue from the player base usage data in building this one on -some- things.

This being pointed out, it is also very classic FF to be restricted to those three spheres as a BLM/THM and I see no issue with it outside of the duration of the enfeebling effects outside of combo as well as the rate of resistance building by the mobs. I have a lighter spell list, I have to choose how and when to apply what I have to the best effect. I like it.
However, I do agree that I am annoyed that only the fire-line is AOE and isn't very cost effective but then again AoEs have always had that pitfall, ne?

Here is where I expect pitchforks : Conj/WHM do NOT need freaking astral based spells. They are NOT holy priests in any sense in this particular FF. Conjurers are liaisons if anything and WHM are a step up in harnessing elemental granted magic to bring succor. EI they are given access to the healing abilities of water rather than it's more destructive aspect. I don't see why they even gave WHM Holy ... it's has no real usage, it should have been Reraise or something instead.

So do we need the full elemental wheel as thms/blms? Honestly, no. Would it be nice? Perhaps. I'd rather fully explore my capacity as a blm with what I have first before asking for any more due to the restrictive spaces of the action bar. ( I hate the action bar thing btw. Hate hate HATE. But one must adapt, ne?)

I didn't play blm in FFXI very long. I did play wizards in other mmos.

I would settle for fire/ice/lightning if they were all as cosr effective and had a INT combo boost. If all three were equal I wouln't be upset. How often are we gonna see all elements resisted by 1 mob. Versus lightning as our only effective one when earth and lightning mobs would resist.

At the moment ice spells are completely useless. Fire being way too situational on weak mobs,and terrible on most bosses, these spells need to be changed to be similar to thunder/thunara combo at the very least. And fire not to be aoe only spells.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Finally seeing more people noticing the horrible Disciple of magic ability system in newer threads. This is encouraging, but the lack of developer response is not.

Do you developers really have nothing planned? Your keeping this repetitive system the same for 2.0? Spam thunder or be useless on bosses that resist lightning or absorb it?

[Duelle]

Finally seeing more people noticing the horrible Disciple of magic ability system in newer threads. This is encouraging, but the lack of developer response is not.

Do you developers really have nothing planned? Your keeping this repetitive system the same for 2.0? Spam thunder or be useless on bosses that resist lightning or absorb it?

As I mentioned in the thread about magic revamps, the devs went all Suikoden on this game's magic system. Each element has a specific use and/or purpose. This wouldn't be bad in itself...were it not for the fact that as I've said before, BLM and WHM should both stem from CON. It stands to reason both in lore and basic design (which like it or not is still a throwback to how CON was at launch). You can't really have elements mix because the elemental wheel is split between two classes. That needs to change before anything else can really be done to fix things.

[Shurrikhan]

As I mentioned in the thread about magic revamps, the devs went all Suikoden on this game's magic system. Each element has a specific use and/or purpose. This wouldn't be bad in itself...were it not for the fact that as I've said before, BLM and WHM should both stem from CON. It stands to reason both in lore and basic design (which like it or not is still a throwback to how CON was at launch). You can't really have elements mix because the elemental wheel is split between two classes. That needs to change before anything else can really be done to fix things.

Would be nice then to see Conjurer itself be a viable raid-caster in combination with Black Mages in order to complete some of those cross-wheel combinations. If that were so, I wouldn't mind the spell wheel being cut in half for the two CONJ specialty classes (err... Conj and Thaum, grr). But either way, a system would need to be in place that makes whipping together something like Fire and Wind, Water and Ice, Water and Lightning... do something...

[Kafeen]

Alright, this isn't to start a ruckus but it has to be asked...

If any of you arguing for spell reform ever played FF11, did you really ... honestly .. TRULY use anything OTHER than the Thunder or Blizzard line. Be truthful.

Yes, thought less often than those 2. The other did have their situations, such as when fighting elementals. But this was because the damage increased in the order you learnt the spells and Blizzard and Thunder were the last 2 to be learnt and covered both dark and light elements respectively.

If the base damage of all the spells was equal with the only effecting factors being resistances and THM/BLM's equipment, then you would make a lot more use of other elements depending on what you're fighting.

[Enfarious]

That's a direct result of scaling the dmg for each spell by level obtained instead of by it's Tier. If each tier/type of nuke had the same base dmg and it was only a matter of the added effects and/or mob weaknesses that wouldn't have been the case.

Now that I've actually played CNJ a bit and unlocked WHM ... I see where the whole CNJ gets ele spells from, and it actually stands to reason that CNJ would be your ele nuker while WHM would focus on Light Elemental magics, it was a light ele in that CS right?

So then THM which I've yet to get anywhere with is the one with spells it shouldn't have?

[Shurrikhan]

That's a direct result of scaling the dmg for each spell by level obtained instead of by it's Tier. If each tier/type of nuke had the same base dmg and it was only a matter of the added effects and/or mob weaknesses that wouldn't have been the case.

Now that I've actually played CNJ a bit and unlocked WHM ... I see where the whole CNJ gets ele spells from, and it actually stands to reason that CNJ would be your ele nuker while WHM would focus on Light Elemental magics, it was a light ele in that CS right?

So then THM which I've yet to get anywhere with is the one with spells it shouldn't have?

Basically, the division between Conjurers and Thaumaturges, lore-wise *and before the spell-reforms* is mostly as the name implies. If you want to find the root of it in FF, FF4 and FF7's references are probably a good place to start (i.e. native powers, the Sephirot). Conjurer's conjure (create) things into existence based on existent, worldly basics -- elements. Thaumaturgy, definable by its roots as miracle-making, is less obvious in its relationship with the world - instead focusing on the metaphysical - but simplifying that relationship through a simple spectrum - the light to the dark. It puts a less plain value in humans, balancing things like one's lifeblood or soul or inspiration rather than pure elements - hence Sacrifice and the like, blood shed for another.

If you wanted to put this into WoW's crappy classifications, a Thaumaturge would be closer to a priest, and a Conjurer is half of what makes up a mage - the rest falling in the domain of the Arcanist, with direct manipulation of magic itself, regardless of its source, along spectrums of density, strength, stability, etc.

As far as jobs go, a Black Mage stems mostly from Conjurer, lore-wise, but takes a sort of mindset based on the darker side of Thaumaturgy, the role of destruction. Spells like Blind and Sleep would traditionally be Thaumaturgy, unless caused through an element, as would most absolute debuffs (except when affecting the enemy's magic or less directly through the most basic of mechanics (time, movement) - in that case Arcanist). So, I guess in that sense a BLM is a hybrid.

A White Mage would be the opposite, simply put. Lighter half of the spell wheel. "Light"-type (Astral) magics.

Other jobs are equally complicated in division:
Summoners - Conj: primal-based summons or more natural (less divine) creatures. Caster acts a middle between source magics and resultant summon. Thaum: more metaphysical or divine summons. Long-held belief acts as the medium, and caster merely moderates the process. Arcanist(ish): makes Tidus (long, long process).

Time Mage / Calculator - purely Arcanist.
Scholar - can take from any source, the more the merrier, frankly
Red Mage - Conj and a little Thaum, balanced on damage vs (non-elemental) debilitation

Roy Mustang - Conjurer / Arcanist / and a badass ?

*Sorry for that last bit, but someone's signature keeps putting that in my head...

[Geabrielle]

Yes, Oha Sok was the light elemental. I'm not one to enjoy whm but the story is pretty well done. I think the whole issue is actually what THM and BLM don't have natively. The angst is over CNJ/WHM having stone/aero instead something astral based and with THM/BLM's lack of having all of the element spells and their respective combination tiers save ice/thunder/fire.

Please SE beef up ice a little. Please. PLEAAAASE? Just a little.

And add a little more duration to the enfeeblement add effects. I'm not asking for a game breaking 60s, spoiled as I am from the other game but the like 3-5s duration is a little ... hmm how to phrase nicely ...? Inopportune? Silly?

[KoujiGeki]

you know ive looked for the post stating that every final fantasy blm spell. there was one on the forums that someone posted. but i noticed that yes Blm most of the time blm only got Ice lightning and fire. But somthing else i noticed is that in most other FF whm never had any spells of earth wind or water, unless you could teach them the spell but then again if you could you could teach others not just whm. Ie ff6. and when water and earth and wind were added, guess what blm had them.

But on a side note could we just start calling it a Elemental star instead of a wheel.