Dual purpse classes/jobs

[Enfarious]

Don't go down this route, please. This is basically the hybrid vs pure argument. Pures (classes with one possible role) complain that hybrids put them out of jobs if they perform on an equal level (which has been proven false time and again). Then the hybrids become second-class citizens that HAVE to heal or tank, and then everyone's miserable. Trust me, I've been there before.

I'm not saying that there should be hybrid classes OR pure classes, though I do think jobs should be "pure" that's what specialization means, I am saying that if a class like MNK is going to really specialize in DDing then it needs to outshine other jobs to a point where it's preferable to the alternatives, maybe not preferable but equal.
The problem that will always exist is:
If I can bring a WAR who can tank equal to a PLD and while doing that can DPS 3/4 as well as a DRG, and I can bring a host of BLM that can out DPS DRGs or MNKs, then why would I ever bring those other jobs. In a world of success=reward&efficiency=number_of_rewards noone will opt for the "slower" "weaker" "more difficult" except to get bragging rights, "We did this w/ a all jobs setup." and what have you.

So as it stands SE is working towards designing content that makes jobs undesirable, bosses and NMs with some form of hit from behind mechanic to stop MNK and DRG from being able to achieve the highest possible DPS for instance; and making some jobs far better choices in most of that content than the alternatives, BLM for DPS, ARC to avoid mob centered AoE, etc.

I couldn't care less if a WHM tanks Ifrit, someone put in the time/energy/gil to make that happen good on. I do care if everything ends up how it is now. New players get the, "You need to have BLM WHM WAR or your really not that useful" bit, everyone should be able to play how they want to on what class/job they want and still be considered useful.

Yes the whole LS events can take w/e you want, it's not the point, even in LS events a DRG/MNK/PLD is not optimal, yeah you can bring it, but your going to slow things down, make things more work than they have to be. So even in LS your going to get the same effect, just not so "forced" only "nudged" to more often than not go on "good jobs".

I head enough of this in XI, 20 jobs only 8 of which are commonly used for EG content, 4 are almost strictly for soloing, the rest are kind of "eh". That's not what we should "let" happen to this game, it sucked in XI when ppl said what do you have and I said "string of jobs" it was ALWAYS nin/war thf/nin war/nin|sam mnk/nin mnk/war or blm/rdm it got old, I quit playing because of what we see taking place here already, jobs are outshining others to a point where people will eventually only level them for the sake of saying, "Yeah I've leveled everything.".

[Enfarious]

I have no desire to tank as a Blm. I want a person who is a Paldin to excel at it tradtionally, and a war should be able to, but not be a deep DD. THat's the mages job. It seems it going to go tradtional in 2.0, which is good.

Sure I out tanked Paldins on FFXI as a Dancer. It just wasn't feeling right.

As a BLm I expect ot kick ass in damage above all others, but to be smacked down fast if I get hit.

dnc/rdm ftw ... anyway

Yeah but it doesn't happen this way yet, I think mostly cause the formulas in use atm are fucked. 100 def makes all of a .5% difference in dmg taken so even at 1500(anyone hit this high yet?) def your only taking 5% less than a person w/ 500 that's some shitty curve.

[Haibel]

I really don't have a problem with War tanking.

My problem is that gla/pld does not work as a tank. it started in Alpha with there being no real enmity factor
other then damage. Beta added healing in to the enmity table. By release enmity abilty started to somewhat work
as long as the whole party watched their own hate. Making battles long then they needed to be.

After enmity and battle reforms Gla became a viable tank however you still had the need of other classes holding back
a bit to not put hate. Which is some what ideal. there could have been some adjustments to Gla to make this not so critical.
after Jobs added war became able to get hate and hold it. which is where Pld should be but is not. War have enough dmg to
hold hate and enmity abilities on top of that.

I feel instead of nerfing war, they should have added even more enmity to abilities and increased pld/gla damage in a small
amount. adding double attack to a Gla trait for normal attacks and bringing sword dmg up closure to the bottom of the dmg
floor of the other classes would go a long way to fixing this. As it stands now, Gla/pld dmg ceiling doesn't pass other jobs floor by too much. Adjusting Enmity abilities ensures war is still a viable tank.

[Enfarious]

Haibel, I agree,I don't see anything wrong with jobs being able to fill more than one role in a party, it adds freedom. WAR being able to tank OR dd at any given time.

I do however see a problem if other jobs can't do the same, if one job can do 2 things it should not be the best at either of them, but instead have a balanced amount of each. If each role were given a point value with a modifier for specialization in it as a way of balancing you'd get something like:

Healing = 5 pts;
Nuking = 5 pts;
Tanking = 5 pts;
Melee = 5pts;
Enhancing = 3 pts;
Enfeebling = 3 pts;
+1 pt for every 5% above base;
-1 pt for every 5% below base;

No job should exceed 20 pts;
WHM = (healing + 5) + (enhancing + 2) + (nuking) == 20;
BLM = (Nuking + 10) + (enfeebling + 2) == 15;
WAR = (melee + 5) + (tanking + 10) == 25;
PLD = (melee -2) + (tanking +5) + (healing) == 18;
BRD = (enhancing + 7) + (melee(ranged) + 5) == 20;
DRG&MNK = (melee +7) == 12;

I think that's not a horrible scale, if nothing else it illustrates what I'm trying to say somewhat. DRG&MNK got shafted when the abilities changed, prior to that DRG(LNC) had some enfeebles & buffs for the party in the for of surges and what have you, give those effects back and it'd get some balance back, and a reason to want a drg in a melee heavy pt. MNK(PUG) I don't remember at all, but, Sap, Victimize and the like where again it could serve up a second role.

BLM got pushed so far into the nuking that it does nothing else now, and enfeebles are kinda useless so ...

WAR just got too much in the tanking dept.

PLD lost to much in the melee dept. to have also gained less in tanking than war, and it's healing isn't bad but it's not supreme either. End of the day give back a little melee, add some tanking in the form of enmity boosts, improved heals, and/or damage reduction which there is a fair amount of, but I'm thinking more a passive -DT%.

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Yeah I remember in beta and at launch hate control was a non-existent thing, it was more a matter of killing things before they ate the squishy people, even the enmity+ abilities only worked for ~1 second.
I also remember mages hitting 1 AoE spell on mobs/party and getting 2k SP for it while melees would randomly get nothing unless it was on a long drawn out fight and even then it was dodgy with the /random nature of SP gains. I was so happy when that went away.

[stanleyyoung]

classes should be able to take on mutliple roles. Jobs are used/needed when a task is given to a player and the job she/he uses only does that one things none else, classes on the other hand would be more flexible.

With SE fixing/adjusting the class-jobs system, classes will eventually have mutliple jobs branched from them. Example Gla class, pld and drk jobs. Gla can tank with shield and sword (double attack for lil more dps and enimty build) or it can heavy dd with great sword or doublehand a one handed blade to be dd. the key to this would be fighting stance, that being said offense and defense stances. gla tanks while in defense stance or it can dd when in offense stance. pld will always be in defensive stance and only tanks, drk on the other hand will always be offensive stance and only heavy dd's and they do this because they are jobs not classes. gla class can do both(tank & dd) but to a lesser degree because it can change its fighting stance and the jobs cant.

the same would go for other class like mrd. mrd class, can tank by high hp and parry rate with great axe in defensive stance or it can heavy dd with a war hammer (maybe) in offensive stance. warrior job tanks via high hp and high parry rate using great axe in defensive stance and berseker job heavy dd's with war hammer in offensive stance. mrd class can do both of these roles but again to a lesser degree because it can switch its fighting stance and the jobs cant.

[Enfarious]

classes should be able to take on mutliple roles. Jobs are used/needed when a task is given to a player and the job she/he uses only does that one things none else, classes on the other hand would be more flexible.

With SE fixing/adjusting the class-jobs system, classes will eventually have mutliple jobs branched from them. Example Gla class, pld and drk jobs. Gla can tank with shield and sword (double attack for lil more dps and enimty build) or it can heavy dd with great sword or doublehand a one handed blade to be dd. the key to this would be fighting stance, that being said offense and defense stances. gla tanks while in defense stance or it can dd when in offense stance. pld will always be in defensive stance and only tanks, drk on the other hand will always be offensive stance and only heavy dd's and they do this because they are jobs not classes. gla class can do both(tank & dd) but to a lesser degree because it can change its fighting stance and the jobs cant.

the same would go for other class like mrd. mrd class, can tank by high hp and parry rate with great axe in defensive stance or it can heavy dd with a war hammer (maybe) in offensive stance. warrior job tanks via high hp and high parry rate using great axe in defensive stance and berseker job heavy dd's with war hammer in offensive stance. mrd class can do both of these roles but again to a lesser degree because it can switch its fighting stance and the jobs cant.

This would be optimal, assuming of course that SE goes the route of allowing more than one weapon per class/job, and as long as they maintain a fair amount of balance, which is really the whole problem with any and all classes/jobs as they are now.

[stanleyyoung]

This would be optimal, assuming of course that SE goes the route of allowing more than one weapon per class/job, and as long as they maintain a fair amount of balance, which is really the whole problem with any and all classes/jobs as they are now.

Yeah the problem is really the armoury system itself. if each class was given/used multiple weapons, then each weapon would allow for a specific role thus the jobs branched off from the class will each use one weapon only and play a specific role only. the class will obivously be able to use mutliple weapons and play many roles. example gla class uses 1handed swords-shieds, great swords,daggers, scythe, being able to play (tank,heavy dd/spike dmg,heavy dd/enfleeber,fast dps/trick attack). each weapon in the class thus creates a job pld=sheild & sword (tank). berserker=great sword (heavy dd spike dmg). Thf=daggers (fast dps & trick attack). drk=scythe (heavy dd & enfleeber). all this is only possible if SE adds more wepaons to the class and implements the fighting stances is said before.

[Gennosuke]

Haibel, I agree,I don't see anything wrong with jobs being able to fill more than one role in a party, it adds freedom. WAR being able to tank OR dd at any given time.

I do however see a problem if other jobs can't do the same, if one job can do 2 things it should not be the best at either of them, but instead have a balanced amount of each. If each role were given a point value with a modifier for specialization in it as a way of balancing you'd get something like:

Healing = 5 pts;
Nuking = 5 pts;
Tanking = 5 pts;
Melee = 5pts;
Enhancing = 3 pts;
Enfeebling = 3 pts;
+1 pt for every 5% above base;
-1 pt for every 5% below base;

No job should exceed 20 pts;
WHM = (healing + 5) + (enhancing + 2) + (nuking) == 20;
BLM = (Nuking + 10) + (enfeebling + 2) == 15;
WAR = (melee + 5) + (tanking + 10) == 25;
PLD = (melee -2) + (tanking +5) + (healing) == 18;
BRD = (enhancing + 7) + (melee(ranged) + 5) == 20;
DRG&MNK = (melee +7) == 12;

I think that's not a horrible scale, if nothing else it illustrates what I'm trying to say somewhat. DRG&MNK got shafted when the abilities changed, prior to that DRG(LNC) had some enfeebles & buffs for the party in the for of surges and what have you, give those effects back and it'd get some balance back, and a reason to want a drg in a melee heavy pt. MNK(PUG) I don't remember at all, but, Sap, Victimize and the like where again it could serve up a second role.

BLM got pushed so far into the nuking that it does nothing else now, and enfeebles are kinda useless so ...

WAR just got too much in the tanking dept.

PLD lost to much in the melee dept. to have also gained less in tanking than war, and it's healing isn't bad but it's not supreme either. End of the day give back a little melee, add some tanking in the form of enmity boosts, improved heals, and/or damage reduction which there is a fair amount of, but I'm thinking more a passive -DT%.

It is as you say. I feel the same way too. Unfortunately balance is all messed up amongst the jobs, and it's very evident how War has a great advantage in that regard.

If SE did work on some similar point system as in the example you gave, then perhaps we would have a more organised way of achieving a balanced system. At the moment, nothing adds up and War got away with it.
I'm not against having dual purposes in a job, i think it's just fine and can enhance gameplay, but as you said, spread that system evenly across all jobs to have balance. Balance in power, balance in diversity, balance in usability & demand, etc.

I don't think all jobs necessarily need to have a fixed second role as per se, but what they do need are clearly defined additional useful assets/traits to make them stand out in their own way and make each one of them more valuable. If it's a secondary role, so be it, if it's a more broad set of traits or abilities, that is fine too.

As an example, Drg could have dragon added to the job, that alone can set it apart. Monk could have more focus on evasion and counter attack abilities and more self enhancing abilities and hp (being a monk) for higher survivability and damage.
I suppose they can't go all out, bearing in mind how much they'll need keep as reserve for level cap raise abilities as well as new jobs to come, but a solid starting point is good.

Hopefully, we'll start seeing more of these changes with time.. I think they are far off from the optimal balance atm. Just need to make our voices heard on this matter. This is the backbone of the game and needs stressing.

[Duelle]

I'm not saying that there should be hybrid classes OR pure classes, though I do think jobs should be "pure" that's what specialization means, I am saying that if a class like MNK is going to really specialize in DDing then it needs to outshine other jobs to a point where it's preferable to the alternatives, maybe not preferable but equal.

This is fine and I agree with you. As a whole melee should not be something that's detrimental to bring to an event or boss fight. What I meant was that one should never argue that MNK, DRG and any more melee damage dealers we get further down the line should be the top pick for that role if there are hybrids that can also come as DPS. That line of thinking leads to the hybrids having subpar DPS, which means their other role(s) overshadow what they can do in terms of damage and groups only bring them for those other roles, which then basically pisses on anyone who likes the DPS aspect of the hybrid because they want to play their preferred role but can't because the game and the community don't really support it.

If I can bring a WAR who can tank equal to a PLD and while doing that can DPS 3/4 as well as a DRG, and I can bring a host of BLM that can out DPS DRGs or MNKs, then why would I ever bring those other jobs. In a world of success=reward&efficiency=number_of_rewards noone will opt for the "slower" "weaker" "more difficult" except to get bragging rights, "We did this w/ a all jobs setup." and what have you.

True. All jobs should be balanced around the same goal in their respective roles.

So as it stands SE is working towards designing content that makes jobs undesirable, bosses and NMs with some form of hit from behind mechanic to stop MNK and DRG from being able to achieve the highest possible DPS for instance; and making some jobs far better choices in most of that content than the alternatives, BLM for DPS, ARC to avoid mob centered AoE, etc.

I agree with this. Someone mentioned mechanics that challenge ranged and less focus on punishing melee, which would be a step forward.

[stanleyyoung]

you are right about the class to jobs system its unbalanced. yes the numbers behind each class/job is a big factor in the overall balanced of the battle system. but something that is just above that is the CLEAR identification of each class & thier corresponding jobs and the roles inwhich they play and how they achieve to do so. Once SE achieves that then the numbers can be put in to finalize everything, trying to fix the numbers now while some classes/jobs roles kinda sorta are similar and not unquie also the fact the some classes have jobs that arent nessecarly useless but kinda redundant in a way, since they basically do the same thing in the same mannor with little difference.

an example of this is lancer/dragoon. when soloing its better to use lancer due to the fact that you have many cross-class abilities at your disposal. even in parties its nice to have lnc (a decent dd) thats able to keep itself alive unlike dragoon which heavy realizes on heals from others, to add to that lancer can rasie ppl if need be while drg cant. which would you have in a party reguardless of what you are doing. even more so dragoon on the other hand is very realiant on whm & others or it has to keep away from taking any dmg possible since its only way of healing itself is second wind, mogspear( if you ahve that) & life surge.

to me i see it just a bit more vital to clearify the classes/jobs & armoury system. once everyone (classes/jobs) have a clear distinction from each other and all are unquie in thier own way. The numbers will fall in place because you cant have a pld which mostly likely will be a tank do alot of dps and have a dragoon that just a dd doing the same dps it doesn't add up, why have the dragoon when the pld does the same damage. the pld needs to only tank & the dragoon focus on dd. classes/jobs need to be identified and the roles they play, also this will fix the problem we have know were some jobs appear to be overpowered and some underpowered.

take for example war tank over pld. warrior is fine it has all the abilities it needs to fullfill its role (tank & dd). pld on the other hand doesn't have all the neccessary abilities to fullfill its role as a (tank & party saver). changing the numbers on pld dps, defense, etc. isnt the true answer, yes its a factor but more imporantly you need the abilities to do your role and when you don't have that more defense, dps etc. kinda sorta won't help out too much.