Dual purpse classes/jobs

[Enfarious]

I see no problem with there being some hybrid like classes/jobs. It's just give options for those that level it.
Every MMO has its Hybrid classes and WAR is one for this game. Making it strictly DD or Tank has never fit the theme of the job to me.

Jobs have been around for all of 3 minutes ... Never fit a theme is a little premature.

Anyway, yes they all do have hybrid jobs/classes, in this as per the devs, again unless I misunderstood:
Classes are balanced all arounders capable of doing many things well. Jobs are specialists derived from those classes that excel in a single thing.

Again though, I never said take away WARs or any other jobs dual functionalness(that's not a word ... yet) but don't leave some w/ that kind of solid ass strength/capability while others are left out in the cold w/ only a single skill set.

I'm sorry but MNK has a single role, they have an "Oh shit" ability in Taunt but that doesn't make them dual purpose since it lasts all of 4 seconds. Just like DRG doesn't serve a second function.

I will say people have made some great points here. Most of the jobs have a secondary purpose, and they are well balanced, just underutilized in current content. So perhaps the real problem here is:
1) I mainly play PLD(currently busted), DRG & MNK both of which are single purpose.
2) Because of that I don't tend to see the uses of other jobs so much.
3) WAR(my next 50) is OP to the point of toppling the scales even amongst the other dual-purpose jobs.
Since PLD and WAR will receive adjustments, and DRG for that matter, perhaps they'll add some more form/function to MNK and DRG to make them more useful than just providing pure DPS which remains outshone by other jobs that bring more than just DPS to the table.

[Shurrikhan]

Classes are balanced all-arounders capable of doing many things well. Jobs are specialists derived from those classes that excel in a single thing.

Again though, I never said take away WARs or any other jobs dual functionalness(that's not a word ... yet) but don't leave some w/ that kind of solid ass strength/capability while others are left out in the cold w/ only a single skill set.

I'm sorry but MNK has a single role, they have an "Oh shit" ability in Taunt but that doesn't make them dual purpose since it lasts all of 4 seconds. Just like DRG doesn't serve a second function.

I will say people have made some great points here. Most of the jobs have a secondary purpose, and they are well balanced, just underutilized in current content. So perhaps the real problem here is:
1) I mainly play PLD(currently busted), DRG & MNK both of which are single purpose.
2) Because of that I don't tend to see the uses of other jobs so much.
3) WAR(my next 50) is OP to the point of toppling the scales even amongst the other dual-purpose jobs.
Since PLD and WAR will receive adjustments, and DRG for that matter, perhaps they'll add some more form/function to MNK and DRG to make them more useful than just providing pure DPS which remains outshone by other jobs that bring more than just DPS to the table.

I'm going to toss in my two cents here and hope they drop into a relevant part of the wishing pond.

First off, I think that if a theme should exist for a class, it will almost certainly end up being something that should exist regardless of role. In many ways, a Warrior being a fully capable tank and fully capable Damage Dealer does not strike a warning bell for me (it instead goes off simply due to the ease of equal input for greater output among dual-purpose classes). It fits the idea of a large-weaponed, heavily-armored badass.

What makes the situation crappy is that classes like Dragoon don't capitalize enough on a distinct playstyle (in this case likely mobility, fast-dropping small-mob kills, and high emergency deployability [my coined word of the day]). And worse: non-directly damage-related abilities play a large enough part in fight strategy to make that distinct playstyle nearly as useful as it should be.

Sorry to bring up WoW into this--I can assure you that I quit long ago for a reason--but one of my favorite things about that game was being able to do anything other people told me I couldn't because it wasn't a "class function", only to find myself feeling the "way" of the class much more deeply when stepping outside those niche-boundaries.

Is a rant--->[I could kite with a warrior. I could no-tank and no-heal certain heroics with a trusty set of hunters. I could *tank* with a sub rogue (except on boss fights). All it took was a group who didn't treat the roles as the ends of group strategy, and instead as a means to achieve a strategy (in really, really fun way).]

It's my hope that every class will be capable of fulfilling any function to a certain extent, but each in their own unique way, taking advantage of a different part of the game's fundamentals. Especially with any slight reforms to threat generation, you could see cases of a Dragoon bursting a boss purposely to the point of pulling threat only to jump away, leading the boss into friendly-firing incoming new mobs with a ranged attack when targeting the Dragoon. Paladins and Warriors would differ in more than just their effective defense compromised with effective threat or the like. Monks would have their own diverse uses, perhaps pulling strings of attacks off a wounded tank only to dodge them into the floor, that stem from the same sort of subtle and fundamental job philosophies that creates every other niche of the job.

Sorry, I guess this is a case of "give a tired, opinionated man a soda, and..." but in summary, rather than have niches locked off in the name of diversity, I'd rather see diversity give rise to actual, multi-usable job feels. In the meantime just some common sense balancing (just one tiny patch, please) on Warriors would be nice.

[Duelle]

Again though, I never said take away WARs or any other jobs dual functionalness(that's not a word ... yet) but don't leave some w/ that kind of solid ass strength/capability while others are left out in the cold w/ only a single skill set.

I'm sorry but MNK has a single role, they have an "Oh shit" ability in Taunt but that doesn't make them dual purpose since it lasts all of 4 seconds. Just like DRG doesn't serve a second function.

I will say people have made some great points here. Most of the jobs have a secondary purpose, and they are well balanced, just underutilized in current content. So perhaps the real problem here is:
1) I mainly play PLD(currently busted), DRG & MNK both of which are single purpose.
2) Because of that I don't tend to see the uses of other jobs so much.
3) WAR(my next 50) is OP to the point of toppling the scales even amongst the other dual-purpose jobs.
Since PLD and WAR will receive adjustments, and DRG for that matter, perhaps they'll add some more form/function to MNK and DRG to make them more useful than just providing pure DPS which remains outshone by other jobs that bring more than just DPS to the table.

Don't go down this route, please. This is basically the hybrid vs pure argument. Pures (classes with one possible role) complain that hybrids put them out of jobs if they perform on an equal level (which has been proven false time and again). Then the hybrids become second-class citizens that HAVE to heal or tank, and then everyone's miserable. Trust me, I've been there before.

[Enfarious]

Don't go down this route, please. This is basically the hybrid vs pure argument. Pures (classes with one possible role) complain that hybrids put them out of jobs if they perform on an equal level (which has been proven false time and again). Then the hybrids become second-class citizens that HAVE to heal or tank, and then everyone's miserable. Trust me, I've been there before.

I'm not saying that there should be hybrid classes OR pure classes, though I do think jobs should be "pure" that's what specialization means, I am saying that if a class like MNK is going to really specialize in DDing then it needs to outshine other jobs to a point where it's preferable to the alternatives, maybe not preferable but equal.
The problem that will always exist is:
If I can bring a WAR who can tank equal to a PLD and while doing that can DPS 3/4 as well as a DRG, and I can bring a host of BLM that can out DPS DRGs or MNKs, then why would I ever bring those other jobs. In a world of success=reward&efficiency=number_of_rewards noone will opt for the "slower" "weaker" "more difficult" except to get bragging rights, "We did this w/ a all jobs setup." and what have you.

So as it stands SE is working towards designing content that makes jobs undesirable, bosses and NMs with some form of hit from behind mechanic to stop MNK and DRG from being able to achieve the highest possible DPS for instance; and making some jobs far better choices in most of that content than the alternatives, BLM for DPS, ARC to avoid mob centered AoE, etc.

I couldn't care less if a WHM tanks Ifrit, someone put in the time/energy/gil to make that happen good on. I do care if everything ends up how it is now. New players get the, "You need to have BLM WHM WAR or your really not that useful" bit, everyone should be able to play how they want to on what class/job they want and still be considered useful.

Yes the whole LS events can take w/e you want, it's not the point, even in LS events a DRG/MNK/PLD is not optimal, yeah you can bring it, but your going to slow things down, make things more work than they have to be. So even in LS your going to get the same effect, just not so "forced" only "nudged" to more often than not go on "good jobs".

I head enough of this in XI, 20 jobs only 8 of which are commonly used for EG content, 4 are almost strictly for soloing, the rest are kind of "eh". That's not what we should "let" happen to this game, it sucked in XI when ppl said what do you have and I said "string of jobs" it was ALWAYS nin/war thf/nin war/nin|sam mnk/nin mnk/war or blm/rdm it got old, I quit playing because of what we see taking place here already, jobs are outshining others to a point where people will eventually only level them for the sake of saying, "Yeah I've leveled everything.".

[Duelle]

I'm not saying that there should be hybrid classes OR pure classes, though I do think jobs should be "pure" that's what specialization means, I am saying that if a class like MNK is going to really specialize in DDing then it needs to outshine other jobs to a point where it's preferable to the alternatives, maybe not preferable but equal.

This is fine and I agree with you. As a whole melee should not be something that's detrimental to bring to an event or boss fight. What I meant was that one should never argue that MNK, DRG and any more melee damage dealers we get further down the line should be the top pick for that role if there are hybrids that can also come as DPS. That line of thinking leads to the hybrids having subpar DPS, which means their other role(s) overshadow what they can do in terms of damage and groups only bring them for those other roles, which then basically pisses on anyone who likes the DPS aspect of the hybrid because they want to play their preferred role but can't because the game and the community don't really support it.

If I can bring a WAR who can tank equal to a PLD and while doing that can DPS 3/4 as well as a DRG, and I can bring a host of BLM that can out DPS DRGs or MNKs, then why would I ever bring those other jobs. In a world of success=reward&efficiency=number_of_rewards noone will opt for the "slower" "weaker" "more difficult" except to get bragging rights, "We did this w/ a all jobs setup." and what have you.

True. All jobs should be balanced around the same goal in their respective roles.

So as it stands SE is working towards designing content that makes jobs undesirable, bosses and NMs with some form of hit from behind mechanic to stop MNK and DRG from being able to achieve the highest possible DPS for instance; and making some jobs far better choices in most of that content than the alternatives, BLM for DPS, ARC to avoid mob centered AoE, etc.

I agree with this. Someone mentioned mechanics that challenge ranged and less focus on punishing melee, which would be a step forward.

[Colino]

Honestly with the amount of jobs/classes there are you can't possibly expect each of them to fill only one role... It's just not physically possible unless you only have something like 4/5 classes (and no one would want that).

I don't think the current team have been absolutely spot-on as far as balance goes but I think they've done a decent job so far (a part from the WAR/PLD debacle).

[indira]

put it like this if you have hybird people will only want hybrid in there party. "why have a single role when a dual role can fight and heal vs a role that can do only 1 thing". right now the game is balenced with a broken paladin. tank should tank, a DD should kill stuff, and a healer should keep people alive.

already happened in FFXI where RDM was the only mage and nothing but DD's in a party. excluding most of the 15+ other jobs.

[Duelle]

already happened in FFXI where RDM was the only mage and nothing but DD's in a party. excluding most of the 15+ other jobs.

The reason that happened was because the devs made the mistake of giving RDM MP longevity and not WHM. If WHM had been given Refresh and a model designed around MP longevity, it would have easily been the healer of choice. It had absolutely nothing to do with RDM being a hybrid and everything to do with Refresh, Haste and Cure IV.

[indira]

The reason that happened was because the devs made the mistake of giving RDM MP longevity and not WHM. If WHM had been given Refresh and a model designed around MP longevity, it would have easily been the healer of choice. It had absolutely nothing to do with RDM being a hybrid and everything to do with Refresh, Haste and Cure IV.

point is people will still do it. nomatter what.

[Duelle]

point is people will still do it. nomatter what.

Only for as long as the game's mechanics facilitate it. It's one of those things where the developers HAVE to step in an correct. I hope they at the least learned that from FFXI.