#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[CaptainLagbeard]

Because pressing one button as the majority of your 'rotation' is boring as hell? Because, like Healing, 'having enough Emnity to keep the enemy hitting the Tank' is binary, in that you either have enough (and more is useless) or you don't (and it quickly becomes a problem)?

The developers don't think it's a problem. The developers also seem to think that non-DPS roles shouldn't do damage. So what would be the problem if they removed tank's combos and ogcd attacks? And people responding to me also don't think non-DPS damage isn't something that should be considered.

[Absurdity]

The developers don't think it's a problem. The developers also seem to think that non-DPS roles shouldn't do damage. So what would be the problem if they removed tank's combos and ogcd attacks? And people responding to me also don't think non-DPS damage isn't something that should be considered.

Now you're just engaging in sophistry.

Nobody ever said DPS in general doesn't matter. Neither we nor the developers. The devs literally tune the enrage timer of fights so that it can't be beating unless tanks and healers contribute as well.
What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

Every role is expected to contribute damage in a fight, the expected amount however is different.
Tanks aren't expected to do the 38-46k DPS that a Viper can do, because they literally can't. They are however expected to contribute whatever their in-built damage rotation allows for.
Just like healers are expected to contribute damage through their DoT, their burst cooldown and their filler attack spell.
The expected amount is simply lower than that of actual DPS jobs and tanks.

Which is also why those roles aren't balanced against each other, they are not competing with each other and do not have the same expected damage output.
If you increased the healer's damage output to be the same as that of tanks you still wouldn't be competing with that role, you would be competing with the output of other healers and boss HP would be increased to account for that.

[Supersnow845]

Because there is zero content in the game before savage (and arguably some extremes) that teaches healers how to play their role appropriately. Such as how to not be a healbot, planning out heals/mitigation, how to press their (few) dps tools.

M11s is a reality check for most healbots. They are learning they can't just afk through savage and get a clear.

Here's the fun part. Once those healbot players adjust and start getting better at the game, planning out mits and heals and figuring out that their dps rotation is pressing 1 button >80% of the time, they understand that the healer gameplay absolutely massively sucks arse and switch to dps or tank instead.

Guess who fills those newly vacant spots? Fresh healbots.

This is basically why healers are always in the spot of “if healers are so easy why do savage healers suck”

Because the design of healers makes it so the only people that enjoy them suck at them because high level healer gameplay actively makes competant people not want to play healer

If non healers don’t want heal bots in higher tier savage fights then they should be encouraging healer diversification, to make competant people actually WANT to play healer

[CaptainLagbeard]

Now you're just engaging in sophistry.

Nobody ever said DPS in general doesn't matter. Neither we nor the developers. The devs literally tune the enrage timer of fights so that it can't be beating unless tanks and healers contribute as well.
What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

Every role is expected to contribute damage in a fight, the expected amount however is different.
Tanks aren't expected to do the 38-46k DPS that a Viper can do, because they literally can't. They are however expected to contribute whatever their in-built damage rotation allows for.
Just like healers are expected to contribute damage through their DoT, their burst cooldown and their filler attack spell.
The expected amount is simply lower than that of actual DPS jobs and tanks.

Which is also why those roles aren't balanced against each other, they are not competing with each other and do not have the same expected damage output.
If you increased the healer's damage output to be the same as that of tanks you still wouldn't be competing with that role, you would be competing with the output of other healers and boss HP would be increased to account for that.

My argument is that non-DPS roles should be comparable to non-DPS roles. Hence, Tanks and Healers. Neither is a DPS.
Though doing some basic testing, I did find some things... Running Deltascape 3 (O3), with different job to see how quickly they beat them as it's a relatively simple fight with little downtime making it a good training dummy... And eliminating the effects of gear mostly, I picked up the DT artifact sets and used Resilient accessories and a Vanguard ring on all the Jobs to get everything to roughly the same point.

WHM with the recent addition of starting with full lilies, including a Blood Lily for Afflatus Misery, are basically just slightly behind PLD, probably the lowest damaging tank, in damage output on the short term. It's likely going to fall off as you get relegated to mostly just spamming Glare while PLD gets to do their full rotation constantly. To stay the same, Glare Spam and the 3 Glare 4's would need to outdamage the entire Confetior combo by a decent margin since it's a 2m CD vs a 1m CD.

Also trying SCH, it has as huge of a gap to Tanks and Tanks do to DPS.

[Shurrikhan]

What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

The DPS itself might not matter, but the total value should definitely matter.

If you have one role that is able to provide all the direct raid sustain needs of a given fight and yet also provides immensely greater total indirect raid sustain (via mitigating single-target attacks through itself) and significantly more damage all atop that... that's not great.

[Azurarok]

Think it is somewhat notable Healer was usually the first support to be replaced by a dps for farming some group content in EW since that results in more dps than replacing a tank with one.
1T3D parties can be faster for dungeons for the same reason too, especially with Tank survivability being as high as it is.

If healer dpsing is going to be stay as simple as it is right now there's really no reason for them to hit as hard as a tank though, ShB had this problem and tank dps rotations really felt like a lot of effort for very little damage because of that.

[Absurdity]

My argument is that non-DPS roles should be comparable to non-DPS roles. Hence, Tanks and Healers. Neither is a DPS.

And whether the "support roles" should do equally as much DPS is worth discussing. It just doesn't fix the underlying issues with healer gameplay, namely that it consists of spamming the same button for 50% or more of a fight. Increasing the damage of that single spell wouldn't change this.

Though doing some basic testing, I did find some things... Running Deltascape 3 (O3), with different job to see how quickly they beat them as it's a relatively simple fight with little downtime making it a good training dummy... And eliminating the effects of gear mostly, I picked up the DT artifact sets and used Resilient accessories and a Vanguard ring on all the Jobs to get everything to roughly the same point.

WHM with the recent addition of starting with full lilies, including a Blood Lily for Afflatus Misery, are basically just slightly behind PLD, probably the lowest damaging tank, in damage output on the short term. It's likely going to fall off as you get relegated to mostly just spamming Glare while PLD gets to do their full rotation constantly. To stay the same, Glare Spam and the 3 Glare 4's would need to outdamage the entire Confetior combo by a decent margin since it's a 2m CD vs a 1m CD.

Also trying SCH, it has as huge of a gap to Tanks and Tanks do to DPS.

Whitemage's damage profile is what we consider "selfish" meaning that it's only contribution to the "expected damage" is what it's attack spells provide. Tanks fall into the same category, they may have damage buffs but those only apply to the tank itself.

There wil always be huge gaps between SCH and AST compared to tanks in a solo scenario, there is even a sizeable gap between those two and WHM/SGE. Scholar and Astro have lower personal damage because they provide damage boosts to the party. But when there is no party to provide those boosts to (or even less than 7 other people) they quickly fall behind because their main source of indirectly contributing to damage is negated.

The DPS itself might not matter, but the total value should definitely matter.


If you have one role that is able to provide all the direct raid sustain needs of a given fight and yet also provides immensely greater total indirect raid sustain (via mitigating single-target attacks through itself) and significantly more damage all atop that... that's not great.

That's a slightly different discussion though, the overall value that a role provides to the party.

And I agree that tanks should not have decent damage output, party mitigation and high party sustain on top of that. Because now they're starting to infringe on what the healer role is supposed to uniquely bring to the table. Just like Heavensward tanks were infringing on the damage dealer's role.
At most the tanks should be able to sustain themselves for a time, not the entire party if damage frequency is as low as it is in dungeons for example and certainly not indefinitely.

If healer dpsing is going to be stay as simple as it is right now there's really no reason for them to hit as hard as a tank though, ShB had this problem and tank dps rotations really felt like a lot of effort for very little damage because of that.

That's one of very few arguments I could think of for not making the two roles do equal DPS, and it's not even a very strong one. Like I said before, as hard as it may be to mess up your rotation on a tank nowadays it is at least still possible. You could drop Storm's Eye, you could waste MP on a TBN that doesn't break, you could drop your combo and miss a cartridge.
Healers don't have a rotation, they spend at least 50% of all their attacks spamming the same button, it's incredibly hard to mess up because you can slot those in at any time, no combo or resource buildup required. It is streamlined to a point that it has become insufferable to actually play.

The other would be that now that healers provide more DPS their expected contribution also increases. This is only going to widen the gap between people who can spam Glare 180 times per fight and those who can't, because every Glare you don't cast is an even bigger damage loss than right now.

[Shurrikhan]

If healer dpsing is going to be stay as simple as it is right now there's really no reason for them to hit as hard as a tank though, ShB had this problem and tank dps rotations really felt like a lot of effort for very little damage because of that.

I rather doubt the rotational difficulty has much to do with how poor healer damage is compared to tanks.

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that healer performance being X% of tanks used to have to account for GCDs lost to healing while tanks getting their optimal damage, in turn, used to require greeding and therefore drawing extra GCD heals from their healer such that they were roughly balanced in tandem but the devs' decision to maintain nearly maximum tank damage even while also maintaining their maximum passive sustainability (in attempting to pander simultaneously to panicky turtle tanks and the average / less inept player while removing tank stances as an actual gameplay mechanic instead of a once per job-swap chore) completely forgot about that for tanks (overpowering them) even while (or, and therefore) nerfing healer damage per average offensive GCD relative to tanks in compensation for said healers' increased offensive uptime.

That's a slightly different discussion though, the overall value that a role provides to the party.

And I agree that tanks should not have decent damage output, party mitigation and high party sustain on top of that. Because now they're starting to infringe on what the healer role is supposed to uniquely bring to the table. Just like Heavensward tanks were infringing on the damage dealer's role.

Different, yes, but largely interrelated -- not even really separable without risking uselessness. Damage-Dealers have only damage, yes, but the longer they can go without heals, the less healers' value is outside of their own damage (and therefore... at all, since it's less than a damage-dealers' and all fights are ended via damage), for instance. Any potential at-cost sustain choices from tanks are, meanwhile, only as valuable as the difference in rDPS through freed healer GCDs can be. Not only compositional flexibility (or, whether someone gets shafted as quickly as possible with no redeeming broader flexibility) but also kit depth/optionality depend on inter-role balance across all means of ultimately generating practical value, no matter how indirect.

[Absurdity]

I rather doubt the rotational difficulty has much to do with how poor healer damage is compared to tanks.

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that healer performance being X% of tanks used to have to account for GCDs lost to healing while tanks getting their optimal damage, in turn, used to require greeding and therefore drawing extra GCD heals from their healer such that they were roughly balanced in tandem but the devs' decision to maintain nearly maximum tank damage even while also maintaining their maximum passive sustainability (in attempting to pander simultaneously to panicky turtle tanks and the average / less inept player while removing tank stances as an actual gameplay mechanic instead of a once per job-swap chore) completely forgot about that for tanks (overpowering them) even while (or, and therefore) nerfing healer damage per average offensive GCD relative to tanks in compensation for said healers' increased offensive uptime.

I would assume the intention even back then was to keep healer DPS lower than tanks, otherwise they could have buffed healer potencies to account for lost damage casts due to GCD healing.

Technically you still need to greed GCDs on a tank to reach your maximum potential output and run the risk of eating a damage down, crippling yourself. But that is also not required to do more DPS than a healer.

[Shurrikhan]

I would assume the intention even back then was to keep healer DPS lower than tanks, otherwise they could have buffed healer potencies to account for lost damage casts due to GCD healing.

Right, but consider: If you had healers at, say, 85% of tank damage (though early SCH could actually beat tanks, so...) even when they were losing a significant number of GCDs to healing, apportioning for the time lost would put them equal or ahead of tanks' damage back then if they had similarly full offensive uptime. Which... makes sense, since the tank is ALWAYS contributing sustain as long as the target is hitting him instead of someone squishier, while the healer does so only when actually healing.

So, one role was allowed to have both max damage and its max sustain in one go while the other was nerfed commensurately to having its "free" sustain increased relative to healing requirements, even though tanks lost about as much rotational complexity across Stormblood->Shadowbringers as healers loss, at least in flat (rather than proportional) terms.

Technically you still need to greed GCDs on a tank to reach your maximum potential output and run the risk of eating a damage down, crippling yourself. But that is also not required to do more DPS than a healer.

Not really any more so than a healer's even 1.5s cast would cause it to have to "greed" for full uptime amid outgoing AoEs, given how far encounters have gone over the last few expansions to guarantee per-GCD melee access.