RDM 7.4 changes and job identity

[Supersnow845]

At this point I’m convinced JP just wants to log on, see a giant “you won” banner then log off again

[ForsakenRoe]

The reason I asked for a specific fight is that, frankly, there aren't any designed for triple melee in any expansion. I’m genuinely open to an example if you find one, but we shouldn't twist things by saying, "Well, Red Mage used to be a welcome fifth to the melee crowd." When the melee players have to pick a cardinal position, it’s theirs, not a Red Mage’s, because RDM is ranged. Lets' not twist things in this identity post to try and spin it like we've lost something until evidence is provided. It wasn't gutted and people should refrain from dog piling on a job when they have been too busy maining the forums to try it out.

I see what you’re saying in your shift mainly toward talking about identity. Not gonna lie, identity is subjective and hard to discuss functionally, but I appreciate that you aren't equating a range change on the sword combo to the new-gen take of "now it plays like BLM." If you believe Red Mage should "hold its own in melee combat," you’re asking for something entirely new that has never existed in this game. I disagree with this forum 7.4 changes the range of 3 "weaponskills" during burst. Not the identity.

Looking at some SB-era VODs of various fights (UCOB, UWU, O3S, O4S P2, O8S P1), nobody seemed to be struggling to find space to get their Melee combos in. There were some times when Manafication was desynched from Embolden, yes, but Manafication itself didn't give a damage buff of any kind at the time (instead resetting Corps and Displacement CDs). It also doubled current BW Mana rather than giving a free use of the combo, so sometimes desync was a tactical decision

Here's a question. In a hypothetical encounter, with a hypothetical mechanic, the RDM is not able to be within Melee range for 10s after pressing Manafication/Embolden. Say, at 2:05 they press them, and 2:15 is the earliest they can go into Melee distance to do their Melee combo safely (let's say it's something akin to Dancing Green's Funky Floor, it's literally 'do it right or you die' sort of mechanic). SE's solution to this, is 'make it so that the Melee combo can be executed from longer range, so that even when standing far from the boss for the mechanic, the player can do their burst correctly. Why not make it so that, Manafication stacks (the ones that granted increased damage for 6 hits) were only consumed by Melee hits, VerHoly/Flare, Scorch, Resolution? This would allow the player to insert filler GCDs, without burning the damage bonus of Manafication on 'weaker hits'. Why not allow Reprise to function as the 'I want to do my burst but can't get close enough' action, bringing some use back to a pretty forgettable action?

The answer for the 'filler GCDs don't consume Manafication' idea, presumably, is something to the effect of 'then you don't get 2x Scorch/Reso into the Embolden window'. But I think this speaks moreso to the actual issue: Raidbuffs, and the 2min meta, are the restrictive thing re: RDM's Melee combo, not necessarily the short range of the 123. You're forced to Melee combo at the timing SE decides, and if you don't, the damage penalty is higher than ever.

The answer for 'Reprise is the (slightly lower damage) at-long-range way to trigger Ver/Scorch/Resolution' idea, is... It'd be slightly lower damage? If that causes an enrage, that's SE's fault for insisting on making DPS checks so not-lenient. Except M4S, that one was a bit of an anomaly

I’m replying to the fact that you were asking forsaken if they “believe RDM should hold its own in melee” which is a stance neither forsaken or anyone else has taken, people are saying “stop shaving job mechanics down because your combat design team is so uncreative it forces these problems”

1 melee combo or 3 you only get 4 per 2 minutes, absolute best case scenario you have become 25% less melee, worst 75% likely to fall somewhere on the middle at 50%, that’s a massive reduction In the hybrid design of the job to deal with a problem created by the combat design

I think they read my line of 'in previous titles, RDM could hold its own with Melee combat, and the FFXIV RDM having a Melee combo is a nod to that versatility' and conflated the two points into 'FFXIV RDM is good at Melee combat' which is not what I was trying to say

Thinking about it, the reduction in how often RDM needs to 'Melee', is akin to another reduction in Identity-based actions on a different Job this expansion: Dancer. Previously, you'd use 4 Standard Steps (2 'steps' each), and 1 Technical Step (4 'steps'), per 2min, for a total of 12 'dance moves' per loop. Now, with DT's addition of Finishing Move, you use 2 Standard Steps (2 'steps' each), 2 Finishing Moves (0 'steps'), and 1 Technical Step (4 'steps'), for a total of 8 'dance moves' per loop. The amount of 'dancing' that the Dancer now does, has been reduced by 33% with DT's added actions

At this point I’m convinced JP just wants to log on, see a giant “you won” banner then log off again

Can they do that with PVP so I don't have to do daily Frontlines to get to Rank 25

[Voidmage]

Also a funny thing is if yoshi talks about blm identity, he never mentions anything like timer management. He always just describes blm as destruction incarnate, so basically just a selfish high damage caster using destructive fire spells. I think their idea of identity is just completely different to what we think here.
Btw in jp the rdm changes are mostly welcome as far as i could see. One or two disappointed but understanding comments.

If the identity of BLM for some is to just do damage then we can just delete the ice phase and mana costs at this point as well as the cast times.
Make everything instant casts and only explosions.
Funnily enough they already tried that with Paradox and removing it in ice phase because of cold logic.

At this point I think I simply lean back and look at 8.0 unfold.
But I don't see change coming given all that.
All for the sake of the fight design, guys.

I give up here...

[Bonoki]

I've been saying for a long time that Job Identity and Balance cannot co-exist in the realm of FFXIV. It's one or the other.

[Aidorouge]

At this point I’m convinced JP just wants to log on, see a giant “you won” banner then log off again

Now I'm curious if the mobile version has auto-pathing and auto-battling like every other mobile MMO on the market.

While one might assume a mobile version more catered to Japanese preferences would mean the PC version can do its own thing, Yoshi-P has already admitted they're not against adding elements from the mobile version into the PC version if they prove "popular" enough. (And I don't think he was just talking about cash shop cosmetics.)
+++

Can they do that with PVP so I don't have to do daily Frontlines to get to Rank 25

The more likely possibility is that they just add an NPC/bot option for most or all of the PVP modes with reduced rewards/achievements disabled/no ranked.

I don't know how many other MMOs do that, but there's plenty of MOBAs and class shooters that let you go up against bots of varying difficulty levels with the only other humans being your teammates (and even then some of them will give you bot allies to fill remaining spots/roles). Even a bot mode Frontlines wouldn't be hard to fill if you only need 24 people to show up to make it pop, doubly so if the option proves more desireable for those "just here for the XP and tomes" while those actually wanting to PVP pile into Frontlines proper.

[Valence]

Can they do that with PVP so I don't have to do daily Frontlines to get to Rank 25

Pvp is unironically the containment/retirement zone for bittervets and people that like meaningful class mechanics.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Pvp is unironically the containment/retirement zone for bittervets and people that like meaningful class mechanics.

"DRK can't have HP spending in PvE; its a tank; it'll never work"

PVP where DRK has to tank several thousands more damage than in PVE, use HP and have lifesteal/heals and it working: yeah, right.

Who knows, maybe in 8.X they magically surprise us and actually let the PvP job design team work on PvE Job design.

[ForsakenRoe]

"DRK can't have HP spending in PvE; its a tank; it'll never work"

PVP where DRK has to tank several thousands more damage than in PVE, use HP and have lifesteal/heals and it working: yeah, right.

Who knows, maybe in 8.X they magically surprise us and actually let the PvP job design team work on PvE Job design.

They had DRK actions costing MP instead of HP in PVE, because they knew players would be silly and spend all their HP for more damage, get themselves killed to a raidwide by not having enough HP left, and then blame the Healer. Can you imagine a parsebrained DRK demanding the Healer pocket-heal them so they can get HP back to spam more Edges?

[Valence]

Who knows, maybe in 8.X they magically surprise us and actually let the PvP job design team work on PvE Job design.

PvP design team vs Encounter design team, fight.

Unstoppable force vs Unmovable Object.

[Iscah]

The changes haven't bothered me as a primary (though casual) RDM player -- getting Prefulgence immediately feels a bit unsatisfying for vibes, but the other side of the coin is feeling like I'm not pulling my weight in Pilgrim's Traverse because the monsters are dead by the time I can use my big spells. Neither feels good but I'm not sure which is preferable.

The "ranged melee phase" doesn't bother me. It just feels like every so often I temporarily geta chance to charge up and fling spells that are normally used at melee range. It's all enchantment on the rapier either way -- the whole melee phase functions around the idea you can't just go hitting things with your weapon if it isn't magicked up first.