Thread: RDM 7.4 changes and job identity

Originally Posted by Azurarok

I think they're terrified of melees losing a slot. MCH isn't allowed to have good numbers for the same reason, and I'm wondering if they wouldn't have nerfed PCT so quickly if it didn't result in 2 caster comps in FRU.

FFXIV has become the virtual manifestation of that meme where the mom holds one kid up while the other is like, drowning. Naturally, the drowning ones are caster / phys ranged (especially phys ranged lol)

I stated this in another thread but I found it more relevant to share it on this one.

Personally, I have found all the new changes to be good.

I believe there was a bit of a hit to "class identity" that people are struggling with. For example, the three-GCD sword combo becoming ranged while under the two-minute Manafication burst could probably benefit from a different animation; this would better convey that the attacks are now ranged rather than melee. I also believe that Manafication having a damage buff was never ideal because it was often misaligned and didn't fall under Embolden when manarushing. This change to Manafication had deeper mechanics in mind that most people are only viewing at a surface level.

I do not personally believe that the "fun" of Red Mage was stealing a melee player's position during certain content. When they design bosses, they have balanced party compositions in mind. A Red Mage delaying a sword combo during a two-minute burst—just to wait their turn to get three GCDs on the boss—isn't what made this class fun. It was only three GCDs (six for an actual burst if stored up) in a combo that is already far more ranged than melee to begin with.

Only ragging on a job's changes without appreciating the good is how you get them to pull the plug entirely. We know what that looks like because it has happened to other jobs. We need to rinse off some of this negativity and show that we aren't just crybabies. You might hate that it’s ranged now, but you should look at how these changes affect RDM in a gameplay sense, not just how it looks. You are literally being a melee outside of 2 min burst windows for that mobility sword combo, and you still have to use your gap closer, the identity and fun aren't dead. RED MAGE IS STILL FUN :0

These changes were good, just please reinforce our class identity in 8.0! If you want red mage to be a melee or worthy of taking a melee spot during mechanics then that is fine. Just know it has never been a melee so what you believe to have lost or want changed is something that has never existed on this job class to begin with.

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

I do not personally believe that the "fun" of Red Mage was stealing a melee player's position during certain content. When they design bosses, they have balanced party compositions in mind.

They designed bosses in the past where RDM needed to be in Melee range for its combo, but it somehow wasn't a problem for them back then. I don't remember any of these kind of complaints back in, say, Stormblood when RDM was introduced. If there were such complaints, surely this change would have happened sooner?

It's the encounter design that changed, not the Melee combo. So maybe, instead of saying 'wow it sucks to do the 2min burst when I have to go to Narnia to solve this mechanic', SE should consider not having the 2min burst be during a mechanic that sends the Ranged to Narnia? Have them go to Narnia for a mechanic at 1:30, then come in again for the 2min burst as the 'recovery' from that mechanic?

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

You might hate that it’s ranged now, but you should look at how these changes affect RDM in a gameplay sense, not just how it looks. You are literally being a melee outside of 2 min burst windows for that mobility sword combo, and you still have to use your gap closer, the identity and fun aren't dead. RED MAGE IS STILL FUN :0

These changes were good, just please reinforce our class identity in 8.0! If you want red mage to be a melee or worthy of taking a melee spot during mechanics then that is fine. Just know it has never been a melee so what you believe to have lost or want changed is something that has never existed on this job class to begin with.

I imagine that the 'fun' will be the same as it previously was, and that we'll just eventually get used to the change. But the identity being alive/dead is definitely up for debate, as I'd argue that removing the Melee requirement of a Melee combo, is as weird and damaging to the identity of RDM, as making all of the Ninjutsus on NIN be Melee range would be to a NIN's identity. 'It's a rapier, why can I hit from all the way over here with it' and 'It's a lightning bolt, why do I have to be inside the boss's backside to call a lightning bolt down on them', two sides of the same coin IMO

If you're referring to me on that last part (RDM was never a melee), I'm fully aware, I was just musing in a previous post that it could be an interesting way to resolve RDM's issue of 'perpetually 6+% behind BLM because who knows why'. If it were up to me from the very start, RDM would have been a Tank.

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Only ragging on a job's changes without appreciating the good is how you get them to pull the plug entirely. We know what that looks like because it has happened to other jobs. [B][U]We need to rinse off some of this negativity and show that we aren't just crybabies.

People being "crybabies" was the entire reason why we got Paradox in ice phase back. Would you say that was unneeded?
If we stopped complaining about job homogenisation then we will end with the absolute bottom of job design.

And the "bit of a hit to class identity" wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have additional hits on the road till now with other jobs.
Like I said before where do you draw the line?

The reason why you see so much pushback nowadays even for small simplifications or things that are actually qol is because there simply is no trust left in the devs given their track record of designing around only the high end raids nowadays.
If we see those simplifications here now, why should I trust in 8.0 being different anymore?

I don't want my game be watered down to one button wonders and simple AOE dodging just for the sake of fight design.
You are basically saying that each of us who enjoyed planning around those things like melee range or Enochian timers should shut up go away.

People can like those changes and the others but I am selfish in that I want to have fun with the jobs like I actually had before, only to see what made those jobs fun for me get more and more eroded away for the sake of others.

Originally Posted by Voidmage

People being "crybabies" was the entire reason why we got Paradox in ice phase back. Would you say that was unneeded?
If we stopped complaining about job homogenisation then we will end with the absolute bottom of job design.
And the "bit of a hit to class identity" wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have additional hits on the road till now with other jobs.
Like I said before where do you draw the line?
The reason why you see so much pushback nowadays even for small simplifications or things that are actually qol is because there simply is no trust left in the devs given their track record of designing around only the high end raids nowadays.
If we see those simplifications here now, why should I trust in 8.0 being different anymore?
I don't want my game be watered down to one button wonders and simple AOE dodging just for the sake of fight design.
You are basically saying that each of us who enjoyed planning around those things like melee range or Enochian timers should shut up go away.
People can like those changes and the others but I am selfish in that I want to have fun with the jobs like I actually had before, only to see what made those jobs fun for me get more and more eroded away for the sake of others.

No just keep it functional and try to know what you're talking about. I see a lot of dog piling, but no examples or data or anything to back it up other than being mad about the range change on 3 gcds changing while under a buff.

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

They designed bosses in the past where RDM needed to be in Melee range for its combo, but it somehow wasn't a problem for them back then. I don't remember any of these kind of complaints back in, say, Stormblood when RDM was introduced. If there were such complaints, surely this change would have happened sooner?
It's the encounter design that changed, not the Melee combo. So maybe, instead of saying 'wow it sucks to do the 2min burst when I have to go to Narnia to solve this mechanic', SE should consider not having the 2min burst be during a mechanic that sends the Ranged to Narnia? Have them go to Narnia for a mechanic at 1:30, then come in again for the 2min burst as the 'recovery' from that mechanic?
I imagine that the 'fun' will be the same as it previously was, and that we'll just eventually get used to the change. But the identity being alive/dead is definitely up for debate, as I'd argue that removing the Melee requirement of a Melee combo, is as weird and damaging to the identity of RDM, as making all of the Ninjutsus on NIN be Melee range would be to a NIN's identity. 'It's a rapier, why can I hit from all the way over here with it' and 'It's a lightning bolt, why do I have to be inside the boss's backside to call a lightning bolt down on them', two sides of the same coin IMO
If you're referring to me on that last part (RDM was never a melee), I'm fully aware, I was just musing in a previous post that it could be an interesting way to resolve RDM's issue of 'perpetually 6+% behind BLM because who knows why'. If it were up to me from the very start, RDM would have been a Tank.

I need to know what fights you think RDM was designed as having a melee space for so that we can keep this conversation functional. I see your points, I just can't get behind the idea that RDM has ever played like a melee without any truth or evidence. The rapier wasn't removed it was enhanced under a buff.

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

mad about the range change on 3 gcds changing while under a buff.

Again, it's not 3 GCDs. It's 'every Enchanted GCD in the 30s duration of Manafication'. Up to 3 'Melee' combos, if you pooled resources. Unless, by '3 GCDs' you mean 'these 3 buttons on the hotbar, which happen to be GCD actions'

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

I need to know what fights you think RDM was designed as having a melee space for so that we can keep this conversation functional. I see your points, I just can't get behind the idea that RDM has ever played like a melee without any truth or evidence. The rapier wasn't removed it was enhanced under a buff.

If the request is 'what older fights had space designed in, such that a RDM and 2 Melees AND both Tanks can all be in melee range of the Boss during the burst window', A: A lot of older fights did not rely so much on 'the party has 4 in and 4 out' so much as things like Protean positions where everybody is equidistant from the boss, or the angle of each player around the boss is more important than the distance from the boss, etc. and B: The timing of players' bursts were staggered in older days, so not everybody was bursting at the same time. Perhaps the issue then, is that since those days, everybody needing to burst at 2min, and the massive potencies on those burst actions/the multiplicative nature of those raidbuffs placing so much more burden on 'burst at the right time or your DPS tanks', means that RDM being 'unable to get into Melee range' is far more punishing now compared to previously?

If the request is 'what implied RDM ever had anything Melee in its design', it was capable of holding its own with Melee combat in previous games. It having a Melee combo is a nod to that versatility.

I am also not sure what you mean by 'I just can't get behind the idea that RDM has ever played like a melee without any truth or evidence', there's no truth or evidence of that statement (in regards to specifically FFXIV's RDM) because it's never played 'like a Melee'. It's played 'like a Ranged/Melee hybrid, using Ranged for its regular gameplay, and a fastpaced Melee combo to deal burst damage'. Where has the idea that RDM has ever 'played like a Melee' come from?



I guess this slide needs to be updated to say 'Ranged attacks with magic (and sometimes Rapier)', and 'Melee attacks with Rapier (but can sometimes strike with Rapier from 25y away)'. 'A Hybrid Ranged/Melee style, achieved using high-speed positioning' only holds true if you actually need to Melee, and with this change, you Melee less. It is, objectively, less 'hybrid' than it was before. I fully expect that there will be calls to make the remaining 'actually Melee' Melee combo also be executable from range come 8.0