Thread: RDM 7.4 changes and job identity

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

The reason I asked for a specific fight is that, frankly, there aren't any designed for triple melee in any expansion. I’m genuinely open to an example if you find one, but we shouldn't twist things by saying, "Well, Red Mage used to be a welcome fifth to the melee crowd." When the melee players have to pick a cardinal position, it’s theirs, not a Red Mage’s, because RDM is ranged. Lets' not twist things in this identity post to try and spin it like we've lost something until evidence is provided. It wasn't gutted and people should refrain from dog piling on a job when they have been too busy maining the forums to try it out.

I see what you’re saying in your shift mainly toward talking about identity. Not gonna lie, identity is subjective and hard to discuss functionally, but I appreciate that you aren't equating a range change on the sword combo to the new-gen take of "now it plays like BLM." If you believe Red Mage should "hold its own in melee combat," you’re asking for something entirely new that has never existed in this game. I disagree with this forum 7.4 changes the range of 3 "weaponskills" during burst. Not the identity.

Looking at some SB-era VODs of various fights (UCOB, UWU, O3S, O4S P2, O8S P1), nobody seemed to be struggling to find space to get their Melee combos in. There were some times when Manafication was desynched from Embolden, yes, but Manafication itself didn't give a damage buff of any kind at the time (instead resetting Corps and Displacement CDs). It also doubled current BW Mana rather than giving a free use of the combo, so sometimes desync was a tactical decision

Here's a question. In a hypothetical encounter, with a hypothetical mechanic, the RDM is not able to be within Melee range for 10s after pressing Manafication/Embolden. Say, at 2:05 they press them, and 2:15 is the earliest they can go into Melee distance to do their Melee combo safely (let's say it's something akin to Dancing Green's Funky Floor, it's literally 'do it right or you die' sort of mechanic). SE's solution to this, is 'make it so that the Melee combo can be executed from longer range, so that even when standing far from the boss for the mechanic, the player can do their burst correctly. Why not make it so that, Manafication stacks (the ones that granted increased damage for 6 hits) were only consumed by Melee hits, VerHoly/Flare, Scorch, Resolution? This would allow the player to insert filler GCDs, without burning the damage bonus of Manafication on 'weaker hits'. Why not allow Reprise to function as the 'I want to do my burst but can't get close enough' action, bringing some use back to a pretty forgettable action?

The answer for the 'filler GCDs don't consume Manafication' idea, presumably, is something to the effect of 'then you don't get 2x Scorch/Reso into the Embolden window'. But I think this speaks moreso to the actual issue: Raidbuffs, and the 2min meta, are the restrictive thing re: RDM's Melee combo, not necessarily the short range of the 123. You're forced to Melee combo at the timing SE decides, and if you don't, the damage penalty is higher than ever.

The answer for 'Reprise is the (slightly lower damage) at-long-range way to trigger Ver/Scorch/Resolution' idea, is... It'd be slightly lower damage? If that causes an enrage, that's SE's fault for insisting on making DPS checks so not-lenient. Except M4S, that one was a bit of an anomaly

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m replying to the fact that you were asking forsaken if they “believe RDM should hold its own in melee” which is a stance neither forsaken or anyone else has taken, people are saying “stop shaving job mechanics down because your combat design team is so uncreative it forces these problems”

1 melee combo or 3 you only get 4 per 2 minutes, absolute best case scenario you have become 25% less melee, worst 75% likely to fall somewhere on the middle at 50%, that’s a massive reduction In the hybrid design of the job to deal with a problem created by the combat design

I think they read my line of 'in previous titles, RDM could hold its own with Melee combat, and the FFXIV RDM having a Melee combo is a nod to that versatility' and conflated the two points into 'FFXIV RDM is good at Melee combat' which is not what I was trying to say

Thinking about it, the reduction in how often RDM needs to 'Melee', is akin to another reduction in Identity-based actions on a different Job this expansion: Dancer. Previously, you'd use 4 Standard Steps (2 'steps' each), and 1 Technical Step (4 'steps'), per 2min, for a total of 12 'dance moves' per loop. Now, with DT's addition of Finishing Move, you use 2 Standard Steps (2 'steps' each), 2 Finishing Moves (0 'steps'), and 1 Technical Step (4 'steps'), for a total of 8 'dance moves' per loop. The amount of 'dancing' that the Dancer now does, has been reduced by 33% with DT's added actions

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

At this point I’m convinced JP just wants to log on, see a giant “you won” banner then log off again

Can they do that with PVP so I don't have to do daily Frontlines to get to Rank 25