GNB is TERRIBLE now!

[Derio]

Seeing what happened to GNB makes me fearful for what will happen to DRK in 8.0

[Daralii]

Seeing what happened to GNB makes me fearful for what will happen to DRK in 8.0

Bloodied Oblation
Lv. 102
[Insert Bloodwhetting's list of effects]
9000 MP

[ForsakenRoe]

You're not wrong, there are many ways they can even out the potentcy variance of lionheart, each with it's own problems. Talk about making it feel like WAR, that's what making it autocrit would do as you know. Giving it a continuation and lowering potency just turns it into gnashing fang. Not a bad thing but at that point why?

A 1 minute burst though, is something that works for tanks because of the downtime between burst windows and how much less active every tank rotation is by design. They'd have to change that whole design to make it a bad option and as for the 2 min burst window itself, that isn't changing. It was made that way for a reason, so all jobs can feed into it or from it with consistency. That's why 90s buffs were generally removed, why anything but a 2min buff is pretty rare in jobs now. No matter what time frame you put for the raid buffs though, whether standardizing to a 1 min, 2 min, 3 min, 90 sec, etc...it doesn't matter. People will save their strongest skills for that window giving the option no matter where it is, after using in the opener, or they will complain that their best skills fall out of it. Look no further than MNK for an example that uses a redundant skill in the opener so they don't end up with their most powerful outside of raid buffs, where it would fall if playing as designed. If you've never tried it just look up double lunar opener for MNK.

Ultimately there is no perfect solution for everybody but I think this one is pretty clean for me with my 1 day of experience in it. That's all I got.

Yes, in case it wasn't obvious, me saying 'Make Lionheart guaranteed to Crit' was sarcasm, alluding to how you would, with such a change, press Inner Release Bloodfest, and then press 3 Fell Cleaves 3 Lionheart Combo hits. And all 3 hits would be guaranteed to Crit and DHit and everyone would cheer and say 'wow this feels so cool I love big number'

'At that point, why?' Why, is because Gnashing Fang is a GNB thing, and Lionheart with Continuation feeling like a GNB thing (Gnashing Fang) makes Lionheart itself feel like a GNB thing, instead of a bastardized 'every Tank has this' thing. It would feed into GNB identity, not diminish it, to have more Continuation usage in the rotation. Heck, stick a Continuation onto Double Down too

I am aware of Double Lunar opener on Monk. But that proves the point: Every Job conforms to the 2min burst window, and if it doesn't for any reason, either SE changes it so that it does (because god forbid we acknowledge that the 2min meta is the problem, not the Jobs), or the playerbase finds a rotation that forces conformity, even if that means the resulting rotation is janky as hell. Overcapping a Nadi on purpose seems counterintuitive to me, but thanks to SE's lack of action to address the issue, and the DPS gain from playing the 'weird' rotation, that's how MNK is until further notice. But there's been times in the past when weird interactions didn't get hammered into conformity by SE. NIN, in SB, was able to get a TINY DPS gain by using Fuma - Katon - Doton with TCJ, rather than the standard Fuma - Raiton - Suiton the devs expected. Rather than immediately crater the discovered gameplay, they applied a nerf elsewhere in the kit (iirc it was to one of their 123 combo), to make sure NIN didn't massively overperform, but let the weird optimization remain in place (then they cratered it in 5.0/5.1 by adjusting the Ninjutsu potencies (and making them GCD), and then fully buried it in 6.1 when they made Hide reset Doton)

[Xeonaught]

I main Gun breaker and played a few fights and noticed I'm drifting even worse now then before especially with Blasting Zone not sure what to make of it just yet going to take a bit of getting used too just like with the double down change at the start of Dawn trail but right now Burst strike feels absolutely useless

[Amh_Wilzuun]

This is why the forums aren’t taken seriously. The devs actually make a positive job change which improves QOL, heightens the job fantasy (more booms, more burst), and even creates new exciting ways to optimize and it’s still not enough for you people.

And the two minute meta has nothing to do with this. GNB was already on the two minute meta like every other job, 120 is a multiple of 60. And people should care less about damage leaderboards that won’t be relevant in the next patch instead of how satisfying it is to play

[SamJC]

Just created a account to type here because i could not believe that there's people that find the gnb changes bad.

The job was not hard, it just was fucking awful in specific scenarios and SE knews that and they kept changing the job and it seems finally they found the gold spot for gnb. Ask yourself

Why they decreased DD from 2 to 1 cart before? Because every burst you were obligated to have 3 carts stocked, some fights you had to do AOE rotation on a single target just to have 3 carts before a downtime, if not you lose 3 or more gcds building up gauge while everyone is bursting, the player was punished there for not doing a aoe rotation on a SINGLE TARGET.

Why they changed gnashing fang? Because a simple downtime could possibly destroy your entire rotation, imagine a fight, after your burst, your gnashing fang is about to come back and the boss turns untargetable for 10 seconds and come back or you need to respect one mechanic and thus go out of melee range, congratulations, now you gnashing fang is misplaced forever. What i could otimize here? Nothing! I just got punished because my job says so and not because i played bad, you can say "use gnashing fang later/earlier" but the truth is every single time after a burst gnb players needed to pray until the next gnashing fangs happens that nothing will prevent they from using it

GNB was the only job to be heavily punished because of a fight mechanic and the changes were necessary

[ZorahHellmann]

no i think they're quite good actually, i don't see being punished for any bit of downtime in the previous iteration was fine or acceptable

[ForsakenRoe]

Absolute comedy, that this thread was dead and buried under several pages of other topics, for around 24 hours. Most threads that go 24h without activity are effectively 'dead'.
But suddenly, something happened within the past few hours, that brought it back into focus. Something that would make people look for this thread specifically, despite it being buried behind several pages of other topics.
Wonder what that 'something' could have been. Guess we'll never know, eh

This is why the forums aren’t taken seriously. The devs actually make a positive job change which improves QOL, heightens the job fantasy (more booms, more burst), and even creates new exciting ways to optimize and it’s still not enough for you people.

And the two minute meta has nothing to do with this. GNB was already on the two minute meta like every other job, 120 is a multiple of 60. And people should care less about damage leaderboards that won’t be relevant in the next patch instead of how satisfying it is to play

Personally, the Gnashing charges are whatever, I don't mind them adding that to alleviate drift issues. Doubling Sonic Break's DOT potency/halving its duration also has precedent, as they did that with things like Medica2 in the past, to make each tick feel more impactful, so I don't mind that either. If those were the only changes, I would have no issues, and would in fact call it 'good changes, thanks SE'. I'd even be okay with them having Bloodfest trigger the '6 Cartridges' effect, to prevent overcap/make 'exact ammo count' less of an issue going into your burst.

No, my primary concern is with the CD reduction to Bloodfest, and having to reduce all those potencies to make room for a second Lionheart combo per 2min. Changing Bloodfest into Inner Release, Lionheart into the 3 Fell Cleaves it grants, and by proxy, Double Down into Primal Rend, doesn't accentuate the GNB Identity, it just makes it feel more like every other Tank in its gameplay. Yes, 120 is a multiple of 60. Every Tank bursted at 2min. DRK still does, with a 'mini burst' at 60s and a 'full burst' at 2min when everything realigns. So why did GNB need to be moved from a 'mini burst/full burst' kind of thing, to a 'full burst every 60s' like WAR and PLD? Does DRK need Living Shadow to be changed to a 60s CD too, and for Shadowbringer to be reduced to 30s Charge time, with potency/duration reductions to facilitate this?

Job fantasy is that Lionheart, being the last Renzokuken finisher you unlock in FF8, hits very hard. It hits less hard now. I don't think that using it twice as often feels better, I think the exact opposite. Using something more often diminishes how 'cool' it feels. If their concern was the potency made it too variable in damage due to Crit Variance, there were ways to do that without resorting to 'make it feel even more like WAR/PLD'. For example, introduce Continuation steps after each hit. More booms, more Job fantasy, right?

Sod the damage leaderboards, too. You're right, people should care less about them. How satisfying something is to play, however, is entirely subjective, and whenever I needed to play Tank for something, I would prefer GNB over other Tanks specifically to try and avoid the WARification the Role has suffered, as much as possible. I figured the Healers would be the final refuge, because SE has previously been deathly allergic to adding new damage actions/'big hits' to them, but even WHM got one with Glare4 this expansion, so I guess nothing is safe from the WARificiation

[madman404]

This just tells me how uninformed you are. The change killed GNB, if other players were struggling with it, then it was a skill issue from thier side. Real GNB mains like myself didn't want any changes, it's unneeded and uncalled for.

"Real" GNB mains complained about killtimes constantly, because there's almost nothing you can do to control when your party ends a given phase. I'm guessing you've never used the job in ultimate? But it's a little weird to call someone uninformed because they have an issue with a job that is primarily relevant to content with a level of difficulty you've never touched and have no perspective on...

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Absolute comedy, that this thread was dead and buried under several pages of other topics, for around 24 hours. Most threads that go 24h without activity are effectively 'dead'.
But suddenly, something happened within the past few hours, that brought it back into focus. Something that would make people look for this thread specifically, despite it being buried behind several pages of other topics.
Wonder what that 'something' could have been. Guess we'll never know, eh

This thread was on the front page of general discussion for me, I don't know what you are going on about or how it's relevant my points

No, my primary concern is with the CD reduction to Bloodfest, and having to reduce all those potencies to make room for a second Lionheart combo per 2min. Changing Bloodfest into Inner Release, Lionheart into the 3 Fell Cleaves it grants, and by proxy, Double Down into Primal Rend, doesn't accentuate the GNB Identity, it just makes it feel more like every other Tank in its gameplay. Yes, 120 is a multiple of 60. Every Tank bursted at 2min. DRK still does, with a 'mini burst' at 60s and a 'full burst' at 2min when everything realigns. So why did GNB need to be moved from a 'mini burst/full burst' kind of thing, to a 'full burst every 60s' like WAR and PLD? Does DRK need Living Shadow to be changed to a 60s CD too-

I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehile here. Having some abilities be 120 or 60 doesn't really change the fact that every job is on the same two minute loop now. Moving one ability to every 60s vs every 120s hardly changes anything. Lionhart is a fun ability and I like being able to do it more. Otherwise you fill those odd No Mercy windows with just filler GCDs after the big buttons. Dark Knight is not a "120s job" just because it presses a single extra button during its even burst, that's ridiculous. You just seem way too hyperfixated on 120 vs 60 when in Dawntrail it barely even matters at the end of day. I'm not a 2 minute meta defender but this the current game we play in. Why is pressing a button at 60s vs 120s the end all be all for job identity in your book? I mentioned that the gnashing changes that are "whatever" to you allow for cool new optimization, that far outweighs the downsides of perceived loss of fake job identity from being a "120s job".

Trying to conflate GNB abilities with WAR abilities is also just reductive to me. Bloodspiller was rightfully called out as being too similar to Fell Cleave because it is a 50 gauge spender where you get 3 free uses every 60s. They are exactly the same. But now everything with a three step combo is Fell Cleave now? I guess Vicewinder and RDM melee combo are inner release now too. What are we even doing here? Just seems like agenda pushing. Every 60s cooldown is not Inner Release, just like every 120s CD wasn't Lionheart.