Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[Gullis]

I mean, if all you ever do is non-fail-able hyper casual content, yah. You won't have to heal much. Fresh prog as a healer is everything you, and the other "healers" in this thread are begging for. Fresh prog with a Co-heal friend is literally the most fun thing about prog. And no, 8 of the world's best players managing the RNG fest that is a healer-less ulti run doesn't invalidate that.

Really, if 90% of the people crying stepped into savage, they'd find the healing people are claiming is lacking. Because good luck having war heal itself and the entire party by itself in savage lol.

Inb4 more excuses and crying. If you only do baby content, don't fucking complain when square treats you with the kid gloves. For real. If healing is too easy or light, DO HARDER THINGS. There's tiers of content for a reason.

You basically self admit healers are in a garbage spot, since they are apparently only allowed to have fun during the prog phase, which doesn't last that long.
I followed advice like this in Endwalker, and spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 in savage, isn't magicially more fun than spamming 1 in normal. sure you do end up using more of your toolkit (sometimes), but it amounts to pressing x button at x time, due to the scripted nature of fights.
Prog is fun, but that goes for both normal and savage

Mentor roulette with potatoes is the best you can hope for as a healer

[Rithy255]

Snip

Healing doesn't expire in that your right, but this would be solved by having more intense damage profiles on the tank during big AOE pulls which should be doing way more then they do, bosses should output more AOE damage and do more auto attack damage, level synching should also be way stricter (As gear really doesn't matter anyway and overgearing in dungeons straight up ruins them)

I really don't like the idea that equilibrium for example would become a shield this would literally just be TBN on a 60s cooldown and removing warriors main niche while putting it in the same bucket as dark knight a tank that relies on shield timing to survive, your changes would basically boil tanks down to Dark knight, theirs only so much you can do with cooldowns that are shields and mitigations on their own.

The fact that a small amount on healing on a Tank job like dark knight can functionally replace a healer should be a major concern not because dark knight shouldn't have any self healing, but the simple fact that if so little amount of healing can replace the healer role doesn't that just show how flawed healers are? I'd even argue if you took out all self healing from tanks and replaced them with barriers they could functionally still pull wall to wall (including the fact you got a extra dps) I wouldn't even be surprised if tanks could still do content without a healer frankly. Warrior is just so incredibly good at healing that it makes it effortless rather then needing a bit more planning and people to do good damage while timing mitigations.

Let me be clear I do not want tanks to be "op" I want tanks and healers to be balanced jobs, balancing that for me doesn't strictly mean remove self heal it's the only issue, no frankly self healing has worked in many games before, it's a flaw with the job design and content itself rather then a tank that can heal or self heal being a problem. It's the abundance of self healing tools on jobs like warrior, paladin and even gunbreaker rather then it existing at all, that tied in with how OP mitigations are getting (like has anyone seen guardian? that skill is insane) of course your going to have OP immortal tanks that never need to be healed.

What needs to happen frankly is the power levels on healers and tanks need to be shifted down, we do not need serval mitigations, barriers or self healing tools, we need more tempered well designed tools, healers don't need like 10 different OGCD's that all do the same thing, Content like dungeons while they shouldn't strain players the fact that damage profiles are so low is a massive problem which paints self healing as this big villain to anyone who plays healer

[NaoSen]

If you can’t press SIO at the regularly scheduled 90 second intervals for raidwides that just means you somehow managed to fail playing the literal easiest job

Not like that makes it engaging to press kerechole once every minute because the other roles are terrified of a trinity system



How about tanks actually ask for somewhat interesting TANKING as a secondary role dimension rather than taking healing away from the healers then complaining the healers are unhappy that the tanks are better healers than they are



In before I say I stopped doing savage because savage healing is boring because healing requirements are too low and one button spam is boring and then I get told “but think of the casuals”

I don't know how you can talk about savage healing and think that shake is enough to pass a heal check.

[Supersnow845]

I don't know how you can talk about savage healing and think that shake is enough to pass a heal check.

You said normal raids which they are enough to cover

In terms of savage healing it’s a massive mitigation with zero downsides and free healing let’s not pretend like it doesn’t severely affect savage especially given savage healing isn’t particularly high either. It’s a mitigation, you don’t need the attached medica 2 at least POA pretends to be balanced

Savage healing isn’t a paradigm of good design either

[Rithy255]

You said normal raids which they are enough to cover

In terms of savage healing it’s a massive mitigation with zero downsides and free healing let’s not pretend like it doesn’t severely affect savage especially given savage healing isn’t particularly high either. It’s a mitigation, you don’t need the attached medica 2 at least POA pretends to be balanced

Savage healing isn’t a paradigm of good design either

The thing with shake is healers already have mitigation + regen skills too, even white mage the weakest healer has got some very strong mitigative barrier skills with regens put on them. Shake it off isn't really a insane skill in comparison to what healers generally get.

if we want to argue that it can only be the "healers job to heal" then sure, but you best be advocating from taking away mitigations and shields from all healer jobs as they clearly have to be a tank exclusive, to me that creates very boring and limited job design but if we're going to pretend that tanks and healers can't have any amount of overlap then we best be consistent in my opinion.

In reality skills like Divine veil or shake it off don't replace healers in a balanced game, I'd argue your over valuing shake's actual effectiveness. Don't get me wrong its strong and doesn't really fit warrior at all to regen their team.

"Zero downside" skills also should in theory be balanced by the fact that using them when not needed should cost damage output from healers, but as healers get a mass amount of AOE skills combined with most fights having low damage profiles, Shake it off really doesn't impact or help healers do more damage as your always gonna have 100% uptime on healers unless you really mess something up.

[Supersnow845]

The thing with shake is healers already have mitigation + regen skills too, even white mage the weakest healer has got some very strong mitigative barrier skills with regens put on them. Shake it off isn't really a insane skill in comparison to what healers generally get.

if we want to argue that it can only be the "healers job to heal" then sure, but you best be advocating from taking away mitigations and shields from all healer jobs as they clearly have to be a tank exclusive, to me that creates very boring and limited job design but if we're going to pretend that tanks and healers can't have any amount of overlap then we best be consistent in my opinion.

In reality skills like Divine veil or shake it off don't replace healers in a balanced game, I'd argue your over valuing shake's actual effectiveness. Don't get me wrong its strong and doesn't really fit warrior at all to regen their team.

"Zero downside" skills also should in theory be balanced by the fact that using them when not needed should cost damage output from healers, but as healers get a mass amount of AOE skills combined with most fights having low damage profiles, Shake it off really doesn't impact or help healers do more damage as your always gonna have 100% uptime on healers unless you really mess something up.

I don’t get the point of this post. Skills like SIO are theoretically balanced by causing the healers extra drama if they are used at the wrong time. Okay but they aren’t. I’m not discussing a theoretical balanced game where these skills work, im discussing 14 where these skills don’t work. This is kinda like putting the carriage before the horse; sure you can imagine how these skills would be fine if the game was balanced but the game isn’t balanced on this axis and id rather they redo skills that are problematic rather than justify them as “well if the game was balanced then it would be fine”

And im not sure of your point about removing shields from healers. Shield healing as a concept is older than tanks even doing damage and is from way back in the time when CC was the third part of the trinity alongside healers and tanks. Group mitigation has always been the purview of the healer. Overlap is fine but a trinity needs to have each aspect of the trinity unable to function without the other 2 and that just doesn’t work in this game

[Rithy255]

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Your perspective doesn't actually really make sense because even if we removed all these tank healing skills it wouldn't effect healer much, the impact of shake it off doesn't really do anything to effect healer viability in the long run, it doesn't do much to make the actual core gameplay or healer that much better other then to purposely make tanks more static by removing any form of healing tools.

The only real argument you make here is that my ideas are "theoretical balance" which is exactly what we should be asking for, we should be asking for healing output and mitigation to actually be balanced rather then looking at one of the many issues that would be a "quick fix" which is to fully remove all non healing from healers, which like I've said wouldn't really do much to make the actual gameplay of healer feel better, I feel like your standpoint comes from a "how dare tanks DO MY job" rather then actually coming to terms with the fact that forms of healing has never been exclusive to healers, despite the naming being "healer".

To be frank Tanks are a support role as they do not primarily focus on damage and even if we want to debate on adding aggro management back tanks strictly being a aggro bot with more HP isn't a fun design, why should Paladin basically be a lame gladiator with no themes of healing or white magic? Tank appeal and fantasy is just as important as healer fantasy I do not want to play a paladin that doesn't heal and protect allies that goes against everything I like about the job.

Now lets talk Reality as you don't like "theory"
In what world does removing shake it off or even all self heals makes healers feel remotely that much more useful? You would barely be effected if they genuinely removed all non healer healing kits skills, shake it off's healing doesn't really even do as much as you think, maybe some groups would not be able to clear ultimate without clemency spam? and you feel better about that I suppose? but in casual content the reality is you wouldn't do much as a healer eitherway

The reality of the situation is that Tanks and healers are overtuned and the only way of approaching them is fundamentally overhauling the jobs and the damage of fights rather then the absurd idea that tanks shouldn't heal because it makes some fights require a healer now, but they're still boring and lame with 100% gcd uptime (doesn't change dungeons at all.) Fix the jobs and the balance not take stuff away from tanks blindly because "it's MY job to heal".

This is why some tank players can't take these arguments seriously because tank self healing isn't a big massive enemy of healer design, Healer design is the enemy of enjoyment for healers, Tanks are overtuned some self healing (warrior) is overtuned alongside with that, but it's not just self healing in a vacuum and until you realise that you will keep screaming about tanks being OP rather then wanting actual good changes to healers.

[Supersnow845]

Tank players can’t take these arguments seriously because half the time they don’t read them. Notice how I literally never said to completely delete SIO, I’ve only referenced it being overpowered because it’s stronger than any healers oGCD shield options and it has a medica 2 stapled to it. The closest equivalent to it on a healer is divine caress which is on a longer CD and has to burn temperance to use. Why does a tank have a stronger AOE heal and mitigation than a healer level 100 ultimate

I have suggested nerfing healing kits (for reference I’d be happy if SCH lost indom, lost the regen on sacred soil, blessing was straight up deleted with seraphism and seraph only provided the shield not the heal) I’d replace these skills with depth improvements to SCH’s damage kit (remember when SCH was a virus mage; I do)

I have suggested all of this. Many many times. And I don’t support the full removal of self healing, clemency is fine, so is TBN, I really don’t have a problem with how equilibrium worked in SB as well. But if I took my changed SCH and dumped it into the current game I’d just be playing a gimped virus mage in casual content at which point I may as well play PCT. I queued for the green role because I want to play the green role. You cannot sidestep this core facet, I picked the green role to heal. I have endless suggestions on how to internally improve the healer kits but the tanks have to give somewhere because while they can have self heals they shouldn’t be fulfilling a healer role; which they do in casual content

But apparently for a lot of people it’s easier to think I’m asking for the removal of all tank healing with no other changes to anything so we can all be terrible together because that’s an easier strawman to attack

[Rithy255]

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Not really trying to create a strawman here, but you kind of said "discussing a theoretical balanced game" Implying to me that any actual discussion on something more broader to tank kits, like overall reductions rather then looking at one aspect was some sort of far stretch for me to mention, you very much implied on what I was saying which is Tanks and Healers need overall balance changes rather then self healing just being changed is the direction. I just don't know what conclusion I'd come to, because I'm practically advocating for similar things such as making healer gameplay more fun while also tuning down tanks and making them more fun.

The problem is keeping clemency as paladins only healing skill would mean in reality it would never use it unless emergency which sucks for job design, you consider yourself invested into the green role you want to heal it's apart of your fantasy yes? But it's also my fantasy to heal as the "holy healing knight archetype" It shouldn't be hard to understand that if theirs no gameplay of healing on a paladin functionally that it wouldn't feel like a paladin at all to me and ruin the job for me.

My issue is you keep saying that your not against tanks having some form of self healing but clemency as a example shows your against any form of self healing that is seen as "Free" despite that being fine on healers and if that isn't then your against any sort of cooldown without a damage cost I suppose (I don't know and don't wanna assume as I'm not trying to strawman you).

at the end of the day we're both asking for made up changes that will likely not happen, I just am very strongly against the general idea that healing cooldowns on tanks that don't have a damage cost are automatically a bad thing and can be designed around, me wanting changes to tanks and healers is about as theoretical as the changes you want to tanks and healers.

[Supersnow845]

Again I said I’m fine with clemency, not that I think clemency should be it, nor did I say that I want healing to be free on healers; I am a proud advocate of succor should be SCH’s most pressed button in an average encounter

This is the problem. You say tank mains think these arguments are ridiculous but it’s easy to think an argument is ridiculous when you make it up in your head. I want holistic changes to both roles. I just don’t think a skill like SIO in its current form has a place in a role outside of healer. It’s why most of my suggestions for tank revolve around bringing agro back as a concept; because I want more interesting interactions when I’m tanking that aren’t just co-opting healer design to fill the void of role design left by the removal of agro

And that’s why in SB I was an advocate of agro being a TANK mechanic, not a NIN mechanic because at its core a trinity should have a defined niche and be the best in functional role at that niche, NIN being the master agro manager went against that as does modern tank healing