Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[Rithy255]

This is the problem I think I brought up earlier but tanks are not in a good state right now I honestly think tanks are almost as bad as healer in terms of enjoyability as we are both just there to play boring DPS because the fundamental issue isn't "tank heal too much" (Though to a extent I agree on this) The fundamental issue is both are absurdly overtuned while being also absurdly boring to play.

I think a lot of the reaction or the "arguments" you see from healers seems to think taking tools from tanks (mostly self heals) will automatically fix everything about healer, when that's far from the truth, I'm not going to sit here and defend warrior in particular it's healing in AOE situations or how much healing has been added in EW/DT to it (I think aside from flash AOE healing, it's healing was fine in SHB even if strong) The main factor is tanks mitigative values which makes them take barely any damage in the first place, so even a job like dark knight will feel nothing in a dungeon (This is also due to general damage output)

I think if you asked someone like me who enjoys paladin being this support-tank hybrid with healing utility that I should accept paladin to not have any healing then yes I'd be upset because you are demanding a big part of a Paladin's identity be took away for your own enjoyment, Though I personally wouldn't mind them tuning down numbers such as the heavy mitigation PLD has or even removing passive healing from divine might, Thing is I would like to work with the healer to keep the party and self alive rather then that responsibility only being the healers and im forced to play slow boring DPS. (Though I'd actually be pretty content if they had a healer who wasn't just "generic ranged mage number 4" personally).

The solution is something that is more then just removing self healing or accepting that warrior will always be absurdly strong in dungeons and "go play hard content lol", I think both roles need a big overhaul to work better in casual and savage content, tanks and healers need to work together and unless we actually advocate for overall better changes rather then demanding who gets what I don't think it will ever provide anything productive as feedback

[ForsakenRoe]

"So what if a core part of the class fantasy for healers is helping me, I'm having fun not needing help. I agree healers totally should be made fun, but without making ME need their help."

Another day another stupid healer doing anything but coming up with to have fun without it being at other people's expense.

It's like clockwork

BTW we've asked for 'healer dps kits that is more than 1 DOT into 1 button spam' for the better part of like... 5 years now? Doesn't seem to have gotten through to SE though

Currently the only easiet solution that doesn't heavily affect the whole system is to nerfed WAR self sustain. It's more realistic than the what-if scenario. It's not ideal and if I could chose, I would actually choose the ideas you presented here. But alas, the devs seems allergic to making healer role fun.

The sad part is that the easiest solution, and one that doesn't actually 'nerf' WAR's numbers, is to convert all of the selfhealing on tanks (or at least, most of it) into selfbarriers. As a Healer, I don't mind if the WAR can give themselves a self-shield the size of their HP bar, 3 times in a row, because I know that the short duration of such a barrier will result in there being 'downtime' where they're taking some damage that they cannot heal back so easily, and that's where I come in as the Healer, to restore that HP.

I mean, if all you ever do is non-fail-able hyper casual content, yah. You won't have to heal much. Fresh prog as a healer is everything you, and the other "healers" in this thread are begging for. Fresh prog with a Co-heal friend is literally the most fun thing about prog. And no, 8 of the world's best players managing the RNG fest that is a healer-less ulti run doesn't invalidate that.

Really, if 90% of the people crying stepped into savage, they'd find the healing people are claiming is lacking. Because good luck having war heal itself and the entire party by itself in savage lol.

Inb4 more excuses and crying. If you only do baby content, don't fucking complain when square treats you with the kid gloves. For real. If healing is too easy or light, DO HARDER THINGS. There's tiers of content for a reason.

Prog only lasts for so long. Once it's over, we get better gear/knowledge of the fight, etc. The difficulty gets lower, and the content falls out of that 'ideal range'. Is the perspective that we should be taking, that 'I'm a Savage Healer, so my 'fun in the game' life expectancy is 1-3 weeks of prog on the new tier, then everything else for the other 17 weeks of the patch is supposed to be boring to me'? That it's by design??? What a ridiculous stance to take

[Supersnow845]

While i agree with with your premise i don’t think anyone is saying healers think taking healing tools away from tanks ALONE will fix healers

The argument more centres on the fact that if you don’t take away healing from tanks and then give healers something else to do then you are basically making healers play pseudo simplified caster DPS’s which isn’t why a lot of people play healers

In order for a role as fundamental as healer to exist they should be focusing a significant portion of their time to healing something the tanks don’t allow on casual content

The tanks need the agro and positioning back so they can cede healing back to the healers. You can’t “fix healers” by giving them everything but healing to avoid stepping on the toes of the tanks

[ForsakenRoe]

Ideally you want different tiers of content being engaging. Ideally when you tackle challenging contents, you want that to challenge you, not because you're bored to tears.

And that leads to the question: Players didn't have these complaints about any of the difficulty levels of content (in the quantities we see complaints now), back in Stormblood. So what changed between then, and now, that could have caused this massive upsurge in complaints?

And the obvious answer is: Tanks lost Aggro Management, and by extension the Tank Stance Dance, as a gameplay element. Left with nothing more to their gameplay than 'do a DPS rotation that results in 60% of the damage of an actual DPS', mitigation gameplay reduced down to 'kitchen sink the TB, or invuln it if it's one that is specifically planned to be invulned (see the raidplan for details)', and Tankswaps being very clearly telegraphed/dictated by 'you took a TB, you MUST swap, the vuln instantly kills you otherwise', SE had to find a way to pad out the responsibilities the Role has to partake in, lest the role feel hollow, empty, soulless. So, they stapled self-healing onto the role, giving the Tank more of a say in how long they live for. Unfortunately, not only does this take the responsibility of 'heal the Tank' away from the Healer (it's in the Role's name, come on), SE also removed a lot of other responsibilites from Healers at the same time as the aforementioned Tank changes, in SHB. Namely, reducing how 'complex' the DPS rotation is for Healers to execute. So, the 'fun' underwent a transfusion from Healer to Tank, sacrificing one role to save another as it were

Well, if one role out of Healer and Tank has to die, so that the other can live, I guess one of these two roles is used by John Meteor in the trailers and the other is not, so that's where SE's priorities lie I suppose?

This is the problem I think I brought up earlier but tanks are not in a good state right now I honestly think tanks are almost as bad as healer in terms of enjoyability as we are both just there to play boring DPS because the fundamental issue isn't "tank heal too much" (Though to a extent I agree on this) The fundamental issue is both are absurdly overtuned while being also absurdly boring to play.

........

The solution is something that is more then just removing self healing or accepting that warrior will always be absurdly strong in dungeons and "go play hard content lol", I think both roles need a big overhaul to work better in casual and savage content, tanks and healers need to work together and unless we actually advocate for overall better changes rather then demanding who gets what I don't think it will ever provide anything productive as feedback

Agreed. Tank hasn't felt right to me since SHB removed Tank Stances.

I do think though, that changing a lot of selfhealing tools to self-barriers for Tanks, would, at worst have no effect, and at best, actually improve the role and move it back towards being more thematic to its identity (of protecting itself/allies, not healing them directly). And Healers would benefit by being given the opportunity to actually Heal to cover the times where the Tank doesn't have a selfbarrier active and is taking 'permanent HP damage'. With such a change, gameplay could then open up for Tanks who want to optimize, by changing how they play to further extend their self-mit coverage.

As an example, imagine for a second that PLD's Confiteor Combo (all 4 hits of it) and Holy Spirit (via Divine Might) all grant a 400p Barrier to the PLD for 9s, instead of the 400p heal they currently do. Additionally, let's imagine that, rather than simply overwriting a previous application, using these actions in sequence adds the new Barrier potency, to the old, empowering it further and resetting the timer to 9s again. In a burst window, a PLD would normally use the full combo, and the Divine Might proc probably right after (although they might choose to hold it to use for a downtime like Revolutionary Reign). With the above, however, the PLD might consider holding the Divine Might proc for a GCD or two, delaying by using Atonement hits or Goring Blade, so that the timer on the Barrier has time to tick down before being refreshed back up to 9s, thereby covering a longer duration (which then reduces the amount of time they are 'naked' between hard CDs like Rampart/Bulwark)

Also, maybe leaning into the Role Actions more would be helpful. Not just the classic 'hey can you give us more than 3 uses for Esuna per expansion please SE', but massively increasing how often there's interruptible casts in dungeon bosses, EX trials, etc. for a Tank to use Interject on, or more reason to use Low Blow to stun things? M6S Adds were nice, but that was one fight, and I'm not sure how sustainable it'd be for every piece of content to be M6S Adds

[Kozh]

Inb4 more excuses and crying. If you only do baby content, don't fucking complain when square treats you with the kid gloves. For real. If healing is too easy or light, DO HARDER THINGS. There's tiers of content for a reason.

Why the hell does healer should be the one not allowed to have fun when doing normal content?
What you're doing here is basically defending how unbalanced the majority of content this game provides. Even savage raiders have to do normal content, so do forgive us for finding it mind numbing.

Also, the gall if you to say healer having kid gloves when in reality it is TANK's kid gloves. As a tank you don't have to do aggro management anymore, don't have to think much about mitigations when they attached heals and shields to attack skill, practically unkillable in normal content even when solo; but sure, it's us healers who wear kid gloves. Uh huh. What more galaxy brain takes do you have?

[Rithy255]

Snip

I'm going to have to disagree with self healing becoming barriers, I can see the reasoning behind it but it limits what tanks can do to "tank" Self healing is a extension on taking damage (aka the very basic baseline of what a tank does) All tanks would have is massive shielding skills aka what dark knight does best and having super high mitigations, with self healing being a option on things we can add to tank kits, it puts in less limits on what a tank does.

The idea to me that self healing or even ally healing can't work unless in the form of shields just doesn't make any sense to me, sure right now self healing is very unbalanced, but thats because tanks don't even take damage in the first place, the biggest issue with Paladin, Dark knight and Gunbreakers survivability is the actual mitigation they have (warrior i think very clearly would have issues in dungeons with self healing in particular) Self healing seeming "OP" is a byproduct of how little damage tanks take in dungeon scenarios (even harder content arguably).

I do think your example of divine might giving a barrier is actually a positive change, as you should be timing your holy spirit around fights when you can, if you removed the self healing part from all magic attacks and replaced it with a 400p shield (that shouldn't stack) then I'd think thats good, I don't think we should give the same treatment to Holy sheltron for example though I like the healing over time it gives, If anything is wrong with that ability it's the fact it's got two stacked mitigation effects, I much rather it be a plain 15-20% with a regen attached. If it held onto one form of self healing I don't think we'd nearly have the same problem we do with PLD's self healing output, Similar can be said about gunbreaker it shouldn't really have both a regen and a excog though I'm more inclined to say its regen should be reverted to 200p and the excog should go down in potency by quite a bit (500p), I don't see how you'd work in shielding to its kit that would make sense. Drks self healing is already very limited.

I think if you turn warriors self healing kit into a shielding kit it would just be absurd how much shields it would get, frankly with its already on par mitigation and shortest invul it would become the best tank in the game by a mile defensively, I personally just want them to overhaul this job as I think that's the general direction.

Not to say your idea might help with healers healing more, but I don't think removing self healing for shielding really solves much, healers maybe feel a bit more needed? I don't know if that's the goal but I can't hardly say its a improvement to use maybe one ogcd heal per minute compared to none while making tanks even more defensive then they already are.

Also you say it's not apart of the identity to heal allies as tank, maybe not warrior but most certainly it's been a long standing paladin identity (Its literally a white magic user which is known for healing) even in ARR you had to level conjurer to unlock it I'm pretty sure (even if it didn't really have good direct non borrowed healing skills), I'd even argue gunbreaker to a extent too would have some healing elements on allies, obviously you need to be careful with how much a Paladin or gunbreaker can effectively heal players without removing a healer's job but if a Regen on intervention or a single excog replaces the identity of healers I think you have to call into question that maybe the flaw isn't that a tank can directly heal but it's the fact that a limited amount of healing can replace your entire role? I think that's a massive issue but not with tanks, that's a issue with damage output of enemies not being enough.

[RedLolly]

My concern with tanks like WAR going all in on flipping their overtuned healing in shielding will just result in overtuned shielding. It could also have some really wacky effects in scenarios with SCH/SGE healers in teams.

[Supersnow845]

To be fair it’s not like SCH doesn’t already completely break the game and it does it solo

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]snip

Adding more to this reply: I don't have issue with the idea of 'off healer' jobs having their own colors of Cure II/Regen/Shorter Benediction assuming those alone cannot cover all HPS required. Where it becomes yet another issue on top of already existing ones is when faced with the choice between "Who gets to actually heal (not overheal) more? Healer or Tank?" but the dev somehow answers "Tanks" in their own trinity game, and so does some part of their playerbase it seems.

You (job dev) take a poor man's only food (healer's healing resp) then suddenly wonder why this poor man yells at you for starving (all glaroilficosis) lol.

[ForsakenRoe]

I'm going to have to disagree with self healing becoming barriers, I can see the reasoning behind it but it limits what tanks can do to "tank" Self healing is a extension on taking damage (aka the very basic baseline of what a tank does) All tanks would have is massive shielding skills aka what dark knight does best and having super high mitigations, with self healing being a option on things we can add to tank kits, it puts in less limits on what a tank does.

The idea to me that self healing or even ally healing can't work unless in the form of shields just doesn't make any sense to me, sure right now self healing is very unbalanced, but thats because tanks don't even take damage in the first place, the biggest issue with Paladin, Dark knight and Gunbreakers survivability is the actual mitigation they have (warrior i think very clearly would have issues in dungeons with self healing in particular) Self healing seeming "OP" is a byproduct of how little damage tanks take in dungeon scenarios (even harder content arguably).

My concern with tanks like WAR going all in on flipping their overtuned healing in shielding will just result in overtuned shielding. It could also have some really wacky effects in scenarios with SCH/SGE healers in teams.

The main issue with self-healing, is that it doesn't expire. When you restore HP with Bloodwhetting, or Equlibrium, it's back until it is taken off by another attack. A Barrier has a duration, and that's the balancing lever that can rein in the power of the action, without having to touch its potency value. In those few seconds where the Barrier isn't active (and BW is still on CD), the WAR would want to find a way to cover the gap, rotating mitigations to reduce how much damage is dealt to their actual HP instead of expendable Barriers. Damnation's HOT could be changed to be a Haima style layered barrier, and be used there. Equilibrium could grant 1200p of barrier upfront, with 1000p of extra barrier via Haima style layered barriers. Etc. Maybe WHM's Holy patches the hole, by stunning the enemies.

But the key point is that when the hole in the mitigation invariably pops up, it's suppposed to be the Healer's job to Heal, to keep the Tank alive until the tools come back for the Tank to do their job. Tanking and Healing go hand in hand, and too many Tanks seem to have gotten the impression they're meant to be one-man armies.

Personally, I don't think there'd be any issues regarding 'overtuned shielding'. We're already starting from a position of 'the current paradigm is so broken that one member of the Trinity, is making another member of the Trinity effectively pointless in some content (dungeons mostly, but also maps, EX trials have been done without one, etc)', so any 'it might end up being OP' is not a concern, because we're starting from 'it is OP'. At worst, the way in which the Tank is 'OP' shifts in appearance (from healing to barrier-ing), and becomes more identity compliant. At best, it lets the player feel OP while still reining the balance in enough for the Healer role to... start doing the job of 'Healing the Tank' again, as was intended when the Trinity was first established as a game design element

I'm also not sure what you mean by 'wacky effects with SCH/SGE teams' Red, besides 'it might cause the game to explode due to the Buff Cap'? That could be handled by condensing a load of buffs that SGE applies. There's no reason for Kerachole to apply a Mit and a HOT as separate buffs, instead of having it be a single buff that does both, since the two effects have the same range, duration, applied by the same action. There's no reason you'd have one applied and not the other. Same goes for Physis's HOT and Heal Up, or reworking Haima and Panhaima so that they don't need to use 2 buffs to accomplish their effect. Holos at least has some justification, it'd suck if the Mit fell off because the barrier was consumed, but there's probably a way to handle that too, like:

Holos - 120s CD
Grants Holos for 20s
Effect: 10% Mitigation and 300p barrier
Holos Additional Effect: When the barrier is consumed, applies Holosakos
Holosakos Effect: 10% Mitigation
Holosakos Duration: Equal to time remaining on Holos effect at time of Barrier consumption

To be fair it’s not like SCH doesn’t already completely break the game and it does it solo

Funny you bring that up. We can look at the SCH lore: Marauders (Tanks) and Scholars (Healers) worked together and, despite being horrendously outnumbered, thwarted every invasion from the Black Mages (DPS) of Mhach. The Marauders wouldn't have been able to pull that off alone, nor would the Scholars. It's by working together, that they became a fighting unit greater than the sum of their parts, with each side creating space for the other half to focus on what they're best at (Marauders take aggro, so the Scholars don't get hit and have casts interrupted/die instantly to tankbuster, Scholars heal Marauders so they stay alive longer, so they can keep doing the Tanking things mentioned previously

Even some of the lore of the game implies that Healing and Tanking are two sides of one coin