Please do something about dps survavibility in OC

[CNitsah]

The thread is about the former, not the latter.

As the one that opened the thread, no, it's not about the former, it's definitely very close to the latter. I never spoke about soloing things. I always try to get a party. But sometimes, you have to do with the composition you have, and if you're with no healer or a below average healer, well, you end chain dying despite doing pretty good. This supposed to be a easy step in, easy to step out content. You don't control the the other players : when someone invite you in a team you don't know the composition and stick with it. You're not gonna leave because it's not the right composition : that's the best way to not get a team at all. People often talk about the lack of incentives, but incentives are not only rewards, it's also the feeling you didn't loose the time you had to play. That why this solution of "playing with already mastered job" and wait for other is not good enough. I don't want spending 2 hours and not progress in the objective I have in mind. This the reason people hated the Atma step of the relic : because it felt you were losing your time.

Here the choice play without progressing in an objective or chain die when you don't have a heal. I want a possibility to progress as a dps, while not chain dying if I don't have the right composition. Still dying if I fail the mechanics too often, but if do most of them right, I should be able to survive whatever the team composition. I don't have to be punished for something outside of control. And it's not fun to punished for that.

[Valence]

Also, tanks have been the prime soloing job since very early (and, let's be honest here, also in other MMO beyond FFXIV that abide by the trinity) because, at the end of the day, a dead DPS does no DPS and a tank surviving can eventually overtake them.

With the big glaring exception that tanks also have their own shortcomings namely in the way of damage, which is also a thing in XIV, for instance in savage (it's a lot more crippling to lose your top DPS than a support job), or even in deep dungeons where tanks are easy mode until you realize that they're also slow to kill things, which matters quite a bit. In a lot of other games or MMOs they're also incapable of keeping themselves alive on their own either.

And that's precisely the point being made by players about why this becomes a problem in OC. Heck, we're not just talking about tanks being able to survive forever here, which is another point of contention - just read those countless threads about how tanks are invulnerable in casual content and make healers irrelevant. We're talking about tanks literally having not a single downside.

And, as much as I liked Lost Actions, reality is that the vast majority players will simply gravitate towards the path of least resistance and Bozja was far from the exception. The average player is far more pragmatic or lazy than most people here give them credit for.

So what? If the players are lazy and a lot of them go tank in Bozja (which happened yes), at least the non lazy ones willing to play DPS had options, and still have options - unless your point is literally that you don't care about the non lazy players. The problem isn't about players going solo when the content is current, there is enough players around to find a party with healers if you're not tanking - nobody is arguing about that. The problem becomes more and more relevant once the content becomes less and less relevant due to age - and yet I've been in the exact same situations as the OP describes a few times when the content was brand new. What happens once I'm alone in OC and want to go through the content as a DPS? "Just swap to tank lol"? See, that's the problem. The content doesn't enforce role segregation in parties or instances, which is exactly why the cracks of the current pve design start to show very badly.

And while we're in the realm of blanket statements about player categories, I'd argue that the ones actually switching to tank aren't the most casual anyway. The most casual will just show up and play with their favorite DPS job anyway.

Each ignored specific sets of problems affects a specific group of player. And it would be nice if they got solved. Problem is, there is not one. There are thousands over thousands of similarily important peet peeves.

What are you referring to?

Who decides which should get more priority? And more importantly, why should SE redirect time they could use on addressing actual major issues, like the shambling inventory system, housing, social tab, overall combat design, among other things? I would rather they prioritize the more pressing matters rather than cater to problems people just decide to bash their skulls against rather than climb over in the several ways possible they have. OP and the one above answering me could just group with a healer (they're not hard to find, really) or bring a healer friend and their problems would be over. I can't really go over how poorly the glamour system works, the housing scarcity or rigid customization system, avoiding the 2 minure meta with most classes,...

So adding simple sustain potions is competing with dev resources to fix inventory issues, housing, social tab, overall combat design. Got it.

Like, it would be better if they actually allowed some limited phantom actions you could pick from the phantoms you mastered so that you pick up the good chemist ones as a permanent action next to the phantom you actually chose to level/use, but OP wasn't even asking about that. Just a stupid potion lol

[Supersnow845]

For people saying “oh it’s fine” explain why potions need to be locked behind a “job” when Bozja allowed anyone to use them for any reason

Is anyone going to argue chemist is a well designed phantom job even amongst the low bar of existing phantom jobs

[BokoToloko]

snip

You're the one who started complaining about how much of a pain in the ass to survive unavoidable damage as DPS and you call for the solution being a regen potion like previous FO. How is any of that not a tirade about DPS survivability?

And I play on EU and both in Light and in Chaos, I have mastered all 12 jobs and I have NEVER seen a sole CE where there isn't a healer at hand. Much less a party where no one compromised for the most damage intensive bosses (garula, berserk and the dogu). I find it VERY hard to believe that running into a party that can't heal at all, either by phantom job or by normal job. Your whole point coils around a long string of "ifs": if no one goes healer, if no one brings any phantom jobs that can heal (there isn't just chemist), if I play a DPS with low self-sustain and if I'm in one of the higher damage CEs.

And people hated the Atma because of the RNG. It was always the RNG that people hated.

[BokoToloko]

With the big glaring exception that tanks also have their own shortcomings namely in the way of damage, which is also a thing in XIV, for instance in savage (it's a lot more crippling to lose your top DPS than a support job), or even in deep dungeons where tanks are easy mode until you realize that they're also slow to kill things, which matters quite a bit. In a lot of other games or MMOs they're also incapable of keeping themselves alive on their own either.

List me the amount of hard enrages or narrow DPS checks in CE, barring Forked Tower. Because we're talking about OC, not Savage or Deep Dungeon (not to mention tanks are still a top choice in the DD where NPC unavoidable damage does actually matter, namely PotD and HoH.

What happens once I'm alone in OC and want to go through the content as a DPS?

You jump instances. If you're alone in OC, 90% of the times is because the instance is closed and, regardless of sustain, you would still want to jump instance simply because Fates will be cleared faster.

And while we're in the realm of blanket statements about player categories, I'd argue that the ones actually switching to tank aren't the most casual anyway. The most casual will just show up and play with their favorite DPS job anyway.

Most casual players treat the content with utter fear of dying to new mechanics because they do not understand the concept of progressing. Not only that, they will still go for the tank or healer simply because they're easier to play.

So adding simple sustain potions is competing with dev resources to fix inventory issues, housing, social tab, overall combat design. Got it.

Adding simple sustain potions isn't the first nor the list kind of small petitions in the forums. You can't be seriously reading my post like that, lol

We're talking about tanks literally having not a single downside.

Like, it would be better if they actually allowed some limited phantom actions you could pick from the phantoms you mastered so that you pick up the good chemist ones as a permanent action next to the phantom you actually chose to level/use, but OP wasn't even asking about that. Just a stupid potion lol

Weird, how you shift in priorities, going between "DPS struggle to survive and need a potion" and "tanks are too OP". If tanks having no flaws is an issue, why are you even asking for sustaining potions or cross phantom job actions? If the problem is the limited survivability for DPS, what do tanks have to do with any of that?

[CNitsah]

You're the one who started complaining about how much of a pain in the ass to survive unavoidable damage as DPS and you call for the solution being a regen potion like previous FO. How is any of that not a tirade about DPS survivability?

And I play on EU and both in Light and in Chaos, I have mastered all 12 jobs and I have NEVER seen a sole CE where there isn't a healer at hand. Much less a party where no one compromised for the most damage intensive bosses (garula, berserk and the dogu). I find it VERY hard to believe that running into a party that can't heal at all, either by phantom job or by normal job. Your whole point coils around a long string of "ifs": if no one goes healer, if no one brings any phantom jobs that can heal (there isn't just chemist), if I play a DPS with low self-sustain and if I'm in one of the higher damage CEs.

And people hated the Atma because of the RNG. It was always the RNG that people hated.

Yeah, continue to claim you know better than me what I meant, and that the problem is not your interpretation of my words. You never got in one of those situation? Good for you. I have to say it's not most of my experience with OC (I'm currently at 10 jobs lvled up), but it happens often enough to be frustrating.

Also, on the RNG thing : go further, why do they hate rng? because you don't see yourself progress and can feel like you lost your time without any progress... You don't hate RNG because it's RNG, you hate rng because of the frustration it brings and why are you frustrated? Because it's been so much time and it still did not drop yet... you're frustrated because you don't progress... Being forced to use already mastered phantom jobs is the same : getting frustrated because you have only that much time and in that time you cannot progress. It's the same process behind both.

[Supersnow845]

Weird, how you shift in priorities, going between "DPS struggle to survive and need a potion" and "tanks are too OP". If tanks having no flaws is an issue, why are you even asking for sustaining potions or cross phantom job actions? If the problem is the limited survivability for DPS, what do tanks have to do with any of that?

Because OC is literally designed such that tanks have no downsides and DPS have no upsides

Like surely this isn’t hard to understand. The phantom job system punishes DPS with no sustain options other than the abomination that is chemist while tanks have literally zero downsides

They are both sides of the awful balance of OC

[Valence]

List me the amount of hard enrages or narrow DPS checks in CE, barring Forked Tower. Because we're talking about OC, not Savage or Deep Dungeon (not to mention tanks are still a top choice in the DD where NPC unavoidable damage does actually matter, namely PotD and HoH.

You realize you're only making my point further there?

You jump instances. If you're alone in OC, 90% of the times is because the instance is closed and, regardless of sustain, you would still want to jump instance simply because Fates will be cleared faster.

Uh-uh, and that's still going to be a thing once OC is behind us as well right?

Most casual players treat the content with utter fear of dying to new mechanics because they do not understand the concept of progressing. Not only that, they will still go for the tank or healer simply because they're easier to play.

Your idea of what a casual player is and how they tick is both hilarious and somewhat condescending to read. But don't let me convince you otherwise and continue thinking that casuals are allergic to dying when they're usually the ones dying the most in any type of content, and continue thinking that casuals will optimize the crap out of their playtime instead of going for the job aesthetic they like.

Adding simple sustain potions isn't the first nor the list kind of small petitions in the forums. You can't be seriously reading my post like that, lol

How am I supposed to read it then? Why even bringing those issues in the first place then?

Weird, how you shift in priorities, going between "DPS struggle to survive and need a potion" and "tanks are too OP". If tanks having no flaws is an issue, why are you even asking for sustaining potions or cross phantom job actions? If the problem is the limited survivability for DPS, what do tanks have to do with any of that?

If the problem is the survivability of DPS that would appreciate sustaining potions, and if tanks have nothing to do with that, then why do you even care whether or not they get their potion?

Your logic makes zero sense whatsoever.

[Yeonhee]

Not chain dying because of design flow is different from not doing any efforts, especially in this case, where you can do all the effort you want, and, with some CE do a perfect fight and still die without heal. With the solution I proposed, people with no skill would still chain die, but those making just a few errors would not be punished because the heal changed into tank between fates.

I mean, if you go into a raid without a healer, you have a good chance of getting on the floor as a DPS as well. Imo OC is supposed to be group content, I don't see the issue of needing a healer. People complain that healers are useless but then complain that they need them for OC and want them to be useless again. What's even the point of playing healers if everyone can survive just fine without you ?

[Supersnow845]

I mean, if you go into a raid without a healer, you have a good chance of getting on the floor as a DPS as well. Imo OC is supposed to be group content, I don't see the issue of needing a healer. People complain that healers are useless but then complain that they need them for OC and want them to be useless again. What's even the point of playing healers if everyone can survive just fine without you ?

Because again DPS needing healers isn’t much of a relevant point when you can just play a tank and have literally zero downsides

I’m a healer I want to be useful, I also don’t blame DPS for feeling overly reliant on healers in a system that discourages experimentation on squishy jobs when tanks have zero downsides