Please do something about dps survavibility in OC

[hydralus]

Why are you guys arguing about FATEs anyway? The only things with any challenge are the critical engagements.

[UkcsAlias]

Re-read the op.

I did:
its not fun - checked
tanks are the cheese method - checked
it failed doing what it was supposed to - completely checked
and the comments after it indicate that OC is flawed in its design

Thats all that is needed to summarize they messed up this casual content massively.

And saying fun isnt important in a game... thats a bald move.

[hydralus]

People already complain all the jobs play the same anyway so who cares?

[Supersnow845]

There are CE’s that cannot be outhealed by jobs that have limited self healing, berserker is one, idol is another

The problem with OC is twofold, firstly OC doesn’t reward being in a party, there is no intrinsic benefit to it for someone who doesn’t need the survivability because OC lacks overworld danger like eureka does in areas the player regularly goes to and split party benefits of say half farming half cluster farming are neutered in OC because they nuked gold farming when they added it to pots

Secondly is the design of phantom jobs themselves. Of the people who have reported ANY achievement within OC sub 10% of them 10 phantom jobs maxed (the closest achievement to having all 12 maxed). So only a tiny fraction of players really have the freedom to just swap jobs on the fly. Sure you can just say “well if you want to level a non defensive job in a fight you are not confident in then join a party” but again see above and what I’m going to type below. The other problem with phantom jobs is that phantom jobs ignore all damage penalties and benefits from the player except for special attribute. The big ones here are tank mastery and maim and mend. When you remove the influence of those traits tanks do more damage than the physical range, far more than healers and about equal to damage casters because phantom actions have such massive potency because the true potency of a phantom action is about 6* what it lists even with no special attribute (so if you use starfall with 15 special attribute that’s almost a 7000 potency attack or roughly equal to an average DPS’s entire burst)

So since you always want to be levelling phantom jobs unless you are part of the tiny fraction of maxed players then your choices are either beg for a party which has no intrinsic benefit to the support roles that would be joining the party or play solo and play perfectly knowing there is simply some CE’s where perfect is still death………..or play a tank, do as much damage as a DPS anyway, have 406028510 times the survivability even solo and level whatever job you want when you want

The balance of OC is so ridiculously tilted in tanks favour that while it certainly is possible to play DPS you are just effectively handicapping yourself for no benefit because you likely don’t even do more damage than the tank anyway because of how potency works in OC

[Yeonhee]

Thats not proof, thats still n=1... n=1 is never proof unless the sample size is only 1. And yes, im aware that there are more players that can do that. But stating 'you can' because 'i can' is the worst case to use that example on. The actual sample size does indicate that the mechanics can be handled by the experienced player.

But content is normaly designed for certain players, and a certain reputation gets attached to it. OC is deemed casual content from the start, so you can expect a lot of casual players. Players that struggle already in normal trials. Its a huge enough portion of the playerbase. Yet if you ignore those players 'because inferior'... thats the worst possible way to think about it. Because content marketed toward them appears to be not well balanced towards them.

Players play games for fun. That is the key reason they play. And yet, plenty of players get anoyed because the fights cause dps's to repeatedly die over and over again. That indicates there is an issue regarding fun in the content. And the reason: they get to hear the content is targeted for them, only to face it actualy isnt. And if they then say its not fun, it simply is not fun.

No matter how many arguments you throw at it, you cant change the 'its not fun' part. Instead, by stating 'git gud' you are making the situation worse. You can argue as much as you want about it. You cant stop them thinking that way. You can at most cause those players to quit the game. Which in the long term is actualy the worst possible outcome. Because if that happens too much, you will lose the game you like. You still rely on the less skilled players to make money. Because otherwise they could just grind the content themselve.

At some point, people need to understand that casual =/= braindead with absolutely no difficulty content. Being a casual player doesn't mean you are utterly unable to do anything remotely challenging. Just because some people are unwilling to put any thought and/or effort into doing something doesn't mean that thing needs to be changed. Balancing of normal/casual content should absolutely not be done around the lowest possible skill level.

[CNitsah]

At some point, people need to understand that casual =/= braindead with absolutely no difficulty content. Being a casual player doesn't mean you are utterly unable to do anything remotely challenging. Just because some people are unwilling to put any thought and/or effort into doing something doesn't mean that thing needs to be changed. Balancing of normal/casual content should absolutely not be done around the lowest possible skill level.

Not chain dying because of design flow is different from not doing any efforts, especially in this case, where you can do all the effort you want, and, with some CE do a perfect fight and still die without heal. With the solution I proposed, people with no skill would still chain die, but those making just a few errors would not be punished because the heal changed into tank between fates.

[YumieYumiki]

Another case "do you play the game?". There are some boss fates you can do solo on melee because bloodbath (but i found sam safer still) and other are impossible without healing - JUST BECAUSE OF AOE FROM BOSSES YOU CANT DODGE.

Do you read the thread? We are not arguing that some fates cant be done without healing, we are arguing that it is a non problem because you can use a healing phantom job.

Just like tanks have to use a dps phantom job, etc.
Phantom job are meant to compensate the weaknesses of your main job, nothing more.

If there are fates you cant solo as dps, you have skill issues, simple as. Yours are so crippling that you deny that other people can possibly have different experiences than yours.

As for CEs, its group content anyway, but you can still do pretty well ungrouped as a dps with the right phantom job.

I first replied to the thread because someone literally said that dps have no access to sufficient tanking or healing capabilities which is an absurd claim when chemist exists.

I did so because I genuinely thought that person was having a bad OC experience because they overlooked that, but I came to realize that you people are deranged and literally foaming at the mouth over a perceived game design slight that is just not there.

[Supersnow845]

Do you read the thread? We are not arguing that some fates cant be done without healing, we are arguing that it is a non problem because you can use a healing phantom job.

Just like tanks have to use a dps phantom job, etc.
Phantom job are meant to compensate the weaknesses of your main job, nothing more.

If there are fates you cant solo as dps, you have skill issues, simple as. Yours are so crippling that you deny that other people can possibly have different experiences than yours.

As for CEs, its group content anyway, but you can still do pretty well ungrouped as a dps with the right phantom job.

I first replied to the thread because someone literally said that dps have no access to sufficient tanking or healing capabilities which is an absurd claim when chemist exists.

I did so because I genuinely thought that person was having a bad OC experience because they overlooked that, but I came to realize that you people are deranged and literally foaming at the mouth over a perceived game design slight that is just not there.

If you are a DPS your options include

-the literal most boring phantom job they ever made which takes potions everyone had access to in Bozja and made it a “job”

If you are a support your options include

-literally every single phantom job you want to play

What absolutely fantastic design we have right there. There is a vast difference between what’s “possible” and what’s actively encouraged by the game to make your life easier and to make levelling phantom jobs faster.

Going “but muh chemist” doesn’t fix what’s wrong with this particular problem in OC

[YumieYumiki]

If you are a DPS your options include

-the literal most boring phantom job they ever made which takes potions everyone had access to in Bozja and made it a “job”

If you are a support your options include

-literally every single phantom job you want to play

What absolutely fantastic design we have right there. There is a vast difference between what’s “possible” and what’s actively encouraged by the game to make your life easier and to make levelling phantom jobs faster.

And yet im managing to level up my phantom jobs just fine, despite playing mostly solo. (They are all boring, by the way, but at least some are useful)

[Supersnow845]

And yet im managing to level up my phantom jobs just fine, despite playing mostly solo. (They are all boring, by the way, but at least some are useful)

Okay congrats you are playing at a clear disadvantage

Should my opinion clearing Elden ring with a soup ladle affect how balance discussions of the game

You doing it isn’t changing that you are hamstringing yourself for literally zero benefit and that is bad game design