Please just... Just change Living Dead

[Carighan]

Some healers see the act of you using the Invuln as the fail state. I've known, (and seen) more than a few healers who seem to think that Me pressing Invuln buttons as the failure of "I'm not healing enough" despite the fact that they are just another mitigation to play around.

But this applies to all tank invulns, right? To the Paladin one even more so, because everyone else at least takes damage normally (Warrior, Dark Knight) or at least some (Gunbreaker). Ultimate failure state as the healer is when the Paladin pressed Hallowed Ground then, right?

And the issue is that, Now instead of having a button that I pressed, do Something (Me dying and getting 15-20s of my mitigations cycling), it has now done Nothing, I say nothing, but what it really has done is waste Time/GCDs, Healing, and my patience, because I get to have a near useless button that's on Cool Down for the next 5 minutes.

It did do something: You didn't die. Considering you press an invuln for that, it had the exact effect you pressed it for, no? If a Warrior presses Holmgang and never even drops to 1HP nevermind lower, they'd be in the same situation you described, no? In fact Paladins and Gunbreakers share that, only they can't "see" the damage they would have taken. But if during those 10 seconds the damage intake they could have had never turns lethal, then they "wasted" their invuln, yes?

that 15-20s lets someone fully use a TBN, and then as soon as it finishes use another, It can also let you use Rampart or Shadowed Vigil at the start of the next pull if you use it immediately after either.
And it's not that I Need it, but it makes both My and the Healer's jobs easier next pull by letting me have my stronger mitigations for the next pull as well, not to mention that if things go right, you can potentially get 3 Living Dead's in a dungeon.

Is this a secret "buff non-DK minor CDs pl0x"-post? Since their invulns only last ~10seconds, and hence cannot chain from one use of their minor CD to the next? Which is patently unfair I take it, from your general attitude in this thread?

[Code_dionysus]

But this applies to all tank invulns, right? To the Paladin one even more so, because everyone else at least takes damage normally (Warrior, Dark Knight) or at least some (Gunbreaker). Ultimate failure state as the healer is when the Paladin pressed Hallowed Ground then, right?

It did do something: You didn't die. Considering you press an invuln for that, it had the exact effect you pressed it for, no? If a Warrior presses Holmgang and never even drops to 1HP nevermind lower, they'd be in the same situation you described, no? In fact Paladins and Gunbreakers share that, only they can't "see" the damage they would have taken. But if during those 10 seconds the damage intake they could have had never turns lethal, then they "wasted" their invuln, yes?

No, Because with every other tank, they have the (almost) constant healing for this to generally not be an issue for them, (which is a separate issue that we will not get into right now),

Paladin has the healing from the Requiescat combo, on top of Clemency, and now the Holy Sheltron, meaning their Invuln means no matter when they use their invuln they will get full use out of it no matter what.

Warrior has enough healing through Bloodwhetting, and Equilibrium, and Thrill of Battle, that even if and when they have to use Holmgang, unless their cooldowns are monumentally mismanaged, they will always have an easy way to restore at least 50% hp.

Gunbreaker's Heart of Corundum, and Aurora, mean that if you Superbolide, you can stay at about 75% hp if you use it before Superbolide, and bring yourself back to full with Aurora before the full time of if finishes.

Dark Knight's Living Dead is the only Invuln that can potentially leave them worse off if they try to use it vs not. because the only healing it has is Shadowed Vigil, and Abyssal Drain, both of which are long enough that if you use them before Living Dead, they won't be active until way after Living Dead has fully run out.

Is this a secret "buff non-DK minor CDs pl0x"-post? Since their invulns only last ~10seconds, and hence cannot chain from one use of their minor CD to the next? Which is patently unfair I take it, from your general attitude in this thread?

I love Dark Knight's shorter Cooldowns, they make layering mitigations in dungeon pulls more viable and fun, I just want it so that, instead of being entirely screwed over by a healer deciding that I simply cannot take 75-100k damage from 7-12 enemies in the next 5 seconds, that instead It goes off like its theoretically supposed to. And If they buffed non-DK minor CDs I'd prolly quit because we already have so much Mitigation on everything else that It would just make me more of an Allrounder than any of the trust NPCs.

In fact, I'm probably of the complete opposite opinion that we should have LESS healing on tanks, because with how much we have now there's basically no friction anyway.

Also, using Invulns should NOT be considered a failstate for healers, The only failstate, healers should recognize is if anyone died and now has a rez sickness.

[Azurarok]

"screwed over". You really shouldn't be expecting a group of randoms in casual content in an MMO to cooperate with you all the time, especially with something as minor and harmless as "wasting" an invuln

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

...this is still going on? Put the fries in the bag, man - it's not that deep if healers "waste" your Living Dead in normal dungeons or normal mode raids and adding what constitutes as a negative effect to enable this usecase only comes as detriment to usecases where it matters that Living Dead procs.

Signed, DRK main since Patch 4.3, Stormblood.

[Carighan]

"screwed over". You really shouldn't be expecting a group of randoms in casual content in an MMO to cooperate with you all the time, especially with something as minor and harmless as "wasting" an invuln

When it's not even wasted. You didn't die, the invuln did it's job. By what mechanism it did that doesn't really matter now, does it?

[Code_dionysus]

When it's not even wasted. You didn't die, the invuln did it's job. By what mechanism it did that doesn't really matter now, does it?

My definition of "Wasted" for a mitigation or Invuln is if it did its job, Rampart? did I take damage? yes. Does it have 15+ seconds left on the buff timer? no? not wasted.
Nebula, did I take damage? yes. Does it have 10+ Seconds left? no? not wasted.
Holmgang? Did my HP go low enough to warrant it? yes? Did I press any button that heals me? yes? Not wasted.

Thats my criteria, and by these Criteria, I have a criteria for Living Dead of Did I get Walking Dead? because the difference between Living Dead and Holmgang is that Holmgang is meant to be used along side other buttons to make sure you don't die as soon as the timer finishes, which is my main issue with Living Dead.
Living Dead, Did my HP go low enough to warrant it? yes? did I theoretically take enough damage for Walking Dead to activate? yes? why didn't it? Healed by Healer. Do I have enough time before Living Dead goes away to die? ≥5 seconds? I have time. <5 seconds? Wasted oGCD.

[Carighan]

My definition of "Wasted" for a mitigation or Invuln is if it did its job, Rampart? did I take damage? yes. Does it have 15+ seconds left on the buff timer? no? not wasted.
Nebula, did I take damage? yes. Does it have 10+ Seconds left? no? not wasted.
Holmgang? Did my HP go low enough to warrant it? yes? Did I press any button that heals me? yes? Not wasted.

Thats my criteria, and by these Criteria, I have a criteria for Living Dead of Did I get Walking Dead? because the difference between Living Dead and Holmgang is that Holmgang is meant to be used along side other buttons to make sure you don't die as soon as the timer finishes, which is my main issue with Living Dead.
Living Dead, Did my HP go low enough to warrant it? yes? did I theoretically take enough damage for Walking Dead to activate? yes? why didn't it? Healed by Healer. Do I have enough time before Living Dead goes away to die? ≥5 seconds? I have time. <5 seconds? Wasted oGCD.

I'll be honest, that seems like a no-win situation you put yourself into. With absolutely no reason to, like you could just... not do it.

You have to construct a very specific set of - nonsensical, tbh - "rules" to then arrive at being able to rule that Living Dead is somehow "wasted". And again you're actually saying that you want more self-healing, as that's the core difference why you don't see the same issue with Holmgang (which you could not change in a similar way to how you want Living Dead changed, after all).

But there's an extra problem with the way you look at it, and I quote: "My definition of "Wasted" for a mitigation or Invuln is if it did its job". So you press your invuln. This prevents you dying for pretty exactly 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, did you die in the past 10 seconds? You did not => the button did what you press it for. You just need to actually use these skills for what they are, not what they aren't.
Since you also include that you consider invulns in general a waste if you "didn't need them", this also means that any Warrior who gets healed during Holmgang (like say, by themselves?) didn't need it, and likewise Paladins and Gunbreakers would first need to avoid enough damage to potentially die from it to warrant using HG or SB. Plus hey, a Gunbreaker might take more damage from SB than from the enemies!
Or, and I know this is going to be tough to understand, most people don't use their invulns for mitigation but to survive death. A shocking concept, considering that's only what the button is for, I know. Sorry for the deriding tone, but this is absurd. Do you press TBN then complain that it didn't cycle your GCD, too? No you don't, you press a GCD if you want to cycle your GCD. So why do you press a non-mitigation button then complain that it didn't mitigate damage?