Can we go back to using tomes to get relics?

[Voidmage]

This is why we can't comprehend each other. I do not think relics have changed in what they require us to do. It's always been about atmas (fates) and/or roulettes/tomes. Sometimes a mix of those. Some extremely fringe attempts to include crafting (anima's sands) as an option which was actually nice, or eureka trying to gate relics behind it which infuriated a lot of people back then that didn't like eureka. Like genuinely, the things we're asked to do, the tasks, haven't changed a iota since ARR/HW.

What has changed is the amount of relics you can get with the same amount of "effort". Like one relic for 30k tomes in HW (at release, nerfed after) vs 21 relics in DT for example (will probably not get nerfed, like for EW). Can we agree on that or nah?

I apologize for the masochistic comment, which was more aimed at the community - because I do feel that a lot of people consider a that a grind cannot be about something engaging you do regularly for genuine fun because then it's not about effort anymore in their mind. Not that it excuses my slippery slope, but you also did reply pretty aggressively. I've always appreciate reading your opinions on this forum for what it's worth.

No offense taken, all good and yes, we can agree on that.

I think the overall problem with relics and other content which is the reason for all the negative opinions is simply that they have changed them away from how they once were.
I think some changes were good and needed but in the end there will always be people who like how content is. Jobs are probably the biggest example here (and I would agree with the notion that I probably also have simply nostalgia googles regarding the relics and am partly against change there).
In the end, no matter what they do, it will leave some players in the dust while the change makes others happy and I think the easiest solution would be, like we both think, to simply give more options but tbh I also have no answer because do we want change in this game or do we not?
Should change be for the majority or is it fine to leave isles for a minority?

At this point I think their biggest problem is that the devs themselves don't really know what they want the relics to be. Maybe it's time, that content is completely reinvented next expansion but I don't know in what direction.
The more I think about it, the more I feel the best thing would be for each expansion to have their own relic system as something of an identity.

More options will just make everybody collectively do what is the easiest one and either forget the other ones even exist or complain it was a bad idea to begin with.

More options is not the correct play. Just give us a grind that isn't tomestones, don't make the drop rates be lower than 2% and if 5 people don't like it then we just ignore them because they dunno what they actually want anyway.

Even as someone who doesn't like tomestones, I don't think it's correct to take that away as an option for the second step.
It might have resulted in me not going after all relics anymore but nevertheless it would take something away from those who like that.
But as I said, I only "think" more options are good but I don't know what would be the best way...
I think it's a loose-loose situation anyway because tomestones have become intertwined with the relics. Might as well either try to make both sides happy or demolish the whole system and create something new.
Who knows, maybe something like quantum would also work with the option of "harder content" giving more (like light for example) while easier content is slower but more comfy. An ultimate for example could almost instantly fill such a farm up while tomestones are an easy but slow process...

[BlisteringFrost]

No offense taken, all good and yes, we can agree on that.

I think the overall problem with relics and other content which is the reason for all the negative opinions is simply that they have changed them away from how they once were.
I think some changes were good and needed but in the end there will always be people who like how content is. Jobs are probably the biggest example here (and I would agree with the notion that I probably also have simply nostalgia googles regarding the relics and am partly against change there).
In the end, no matter what they do, it will leave some players in the dust while the change makes others happy and I think the easiest solution would be, like we both think, to simply give more options but tbh I also have no answer because do we want change in this game or do we not?
Should change be for the majority or is it fine to leave isles for a minority?

At this point I think their biggest problem is that the devs themselves don't really know what they want the relics to be. Maybe it's time, that content is completely reinvented next expansion but I don't know in what direction.
The more I think about it, the more I feel the best thing would be for each expansion to have their own relic system as something of an identity.

More options will just make everybody collectively do what is the easiest one and either forget the other ones even exist or complain it was a bad idea to begin with.

More options is not the correct play. Just give us a grind that isn't tomestones, don't make the drop rates be lower than 2% and if 5 people don't like it then we just ignore them because they dunno what they actually want anyway.

[Valence]

if 5 people

What I find the most impressive is the confidence in which it's casually dropped

[BlisteringFrost]

What I find the most impressive is the confidence in which it's casually dropped

Yes we get it, you're one out of five people. Almost nobody in-game actually complains about this.

[Xieldras]

Having more options is good in my view.
If I don't want to participate in instances, why not have overworld content give the required "light" or whatever they decided to call it this time around. Hunts, Fates and quests as an alternative?

[Shurrikhan]

no thanks, it's supposed to be a relic weapon not a tome weapon

Except all that really means is "It's supposed to be {a weapon for which there is a singular step that forces grinding content the devs otherwise couldn't get enough people to play instead of whatever tf they'd want to do}, not {a weapon that you can complete however tf you want}."

The problem with tome weapons isn't that you're able to progress them through virtually any and all content. It's the massive imbalance in reward per minute across content that may make people feel pushed towards Hunts and Expert Roulette spam. At least there, though, there literally are other options (and in Books' case, there was at least variety), while in Atmas' case, there are none.

By all means, add another means of tome-production with the addition of Relics, or allow one the option of buying progression items via tomes or progressing the relic directly via the specific activities relic-grinds would otherwise be (briefly) pigeon-holed into.

But I don't see why less choice and a greater chance of turning people away from relics just because of how much more mindnumbing the specific required activity is than can be managed across the whole of tome-rewarding activities, for instance, would somehow be an inherent good.

[Masha_Awandah]

My take on this is that the game is in dire need of long term grinds that take a long time to complete. Most of the content we get since EW is short lived and doesn't offer anything meaningful to work towards. End result: most veterans are either bored or unsubscribed. Relic weapons used to fill this niche of long grinds, but not anymore.

My question for people who prefer tome grind is this: Are you happy with the state of the game?

Because I'm not, and relic weapons being a joke is the reason. A relic used to be something you could be proud of completing, and there's nothing to be proud of when you just buy the thing from a shop.

[Valence]

Yes we get it, you're one out of five people. Almost nobody in-game actually complains about this.

Funny how it always works, nobody complains about the tomes ingame on my end.
You'll just have to chalk it up to being part of different social circles, that's about it. It's funny how those can turn into echo chambers to a point people actually believe they're representative of the whole.

My take on this is that the game is in dire need of long term grinds that take a long time to complete. Most of the content we get since EW is short lived and doesn't offer anything meaningful to work towards. End result: most veterans are either bored or unsubscribed. Relic weapons used to fill this niche of long grinds, but not anymore.

My question for people who prefer tome grind is this: Are you happy with the state of the game?

Because I'm not, and relic weapons being a joke is the reason. A relic used to be something you could be proud of completing, and there's nothing to be proud of when you just buy the thing from a shop.

I'm not but certainly for different reasons - notably the state of pve content across all activities, even though some are definitely a lot more painful than others, like fates fates fates fates. But even then I'm not going to claim that every pve content used to be rosy back in earlier days, even if the pve battle system was actually rewarding: spamming A1S unsynced for barely 10 light when anima light farming was current (because A9S was still current and light rewards got buffed massively after) wasn't exactly thrilling, it's was mindless and dull, for example.

The relics take me the same amount of long term grind than they used to be in previous expansions (ARR excepted, they really pushed it with the og atmas and books). But instead of working on one weapon over a long time, I'm working on them all because the 20+ relics now take similar amount of required resources than a single one required before. That's the only difference and I can understand someone would argue that it diminishes the values of relics or whatever. I don't have a huge opinion for one or the other on this.

[BlisteringFrost]

Funny how it always works, nobody complains about the tomes ingame on my end.
You'll just have to chalk it up to being part of different social circles, that's about it. It's funny how those can turn into echo chambers to a point people actually believe they're representative of the whole.

I'm not playing this posturing game here. If you're bringing it up yourself that's on you. But most players clearly don't care to talk about it generally. It's observable.

[WillIrishclover]

That was some tasty bait OP