Elemental Spell Reform

[KoujiGeki]

funny thing is though Flare post ff11 is non elemental Dmg.

[KoujiGeki]

Honestly scrap Burst from the 15 make it a 1min 30 second recast and replace the 15 with Ultima and make in non elemental dmg unresistable. and well call it even hell ill trade the useless agas for it.

[Vaymathias]

I agree that there should be elemental reform. There also needs to be some changes to lore also, and it's best to do it sooner than later, better pre-2.0 than post, but that's another issue.

On to Fire/Lightning/Ice for thm/blm issue. I think of it as Thm/blm's having the destructive magical elements. Not that Water, earth, and wind can't be destructive, hell you could beat a person to death with a dildo if you really wanted to, but Fire/Lightning/Ice just seem more destructive by nature, while the other three seem more life giving in a way.

Part of the problem is now that if you get attacked by a bunch of mobs strong to fire, you're likely better off picking them off one at a time with Lightning, or a single strong enemy stong against Lightning, surrounded by non-aggro enemies, fire is out of the question since it's exclusively aoe.

Maybe making the elemental "wheel"s only apply to specific types of monsters such as elementals and Esper types, and to have the rest of the enemies set up on a case by case basis, with thm/blm elements in mind would really help. This would also make elemental abilities that do not belong to mages less restricting.

And/or change the way magic chaining works. Use the Stone -> Stonega concept for all elements, and also a reverse.

So for instance Fire -> Fira (aoe) would make Fira a strong single target attack, but the other way around so Fira (aoe) -> Fire would make Fire a moderate aoe attack, roughly on part with Fira (aoe). Doing this with all the elements would make sense and still be limited by the possibility that the target ends up resisting the spell keeping the player from being able to chain.

[Jinrya-Geki]

BLMs being useful for Titan is all based on the design of the fight. They could have some adds you need to sleep or an Infernal Nails situation where the AOE damage of fire really helps to kill them.

As the element system is now, as long as enemies continue to be attuned to one element only there is absolutely no fight that you will not be able to at least deal neutral damage to. Your spells are more than just different flavors of the exact same spell now, they are situational and as long as those situations are utilized then BLM will see use.

Our spell lists are going to expand sometime around or at 2.0 anyway.

I never count enfeebles in important fights like primals. They never work, and if they do land they last less than 5 seconds, and if you use it anymore in that fight, your wasting MP and time cause they won't stick anymore. The draw back of the new enfeeble system. Can already see Rdm going to be a horrible enfeebler with this system in place.

Their argument of using Fire/Thunder/Blizzard absolutely reeks of tradition. And I will show you why:

This list shows the spells which deal direct magical damage, designed to be available to a "Black Mage" in every previous Final Fantasy title. (using most current translated versions for ease of reading).

My argument to the classic FFs, unless the mob was an elemental, they weren't gonna resist the spell. And if the mob did resist one spell, say lightning, you still had a useful fire or a useful ice spell to take them down.

In this game you have Lightning that does awesome damage with combo. Fire is so-so, the mp cost really kills it. Lolice... the retarded cousin of MIAwater.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Gonna keep bumping this till it get's some kind of reply from a developer.

What is the plans for the split elements?

Do you intend to reform it all so that one class gets all the elemental spells? Why wasn't conjurer given 2 single target banishes, and 1 AOE banish that could be comboed into single target instead of messing with Black Mages DD output on all mobs.

Since you split the elements between White mage and Black Mage for some reason, are you gonna split up summoners ability as well with some other class that shouldn't have it too?

Is the enfeeble system going to be redone again, because for some reason no one seems to notice how bad they are now? If it wasn't a zerg fest I promise you people would notice how bad sleepga is after one use.

Will Ancient Magic spells be redone so that they are actually effective for more than just trash mobs and hate reset. (Seriously freeze shouldn't be freeze).

[Vaymathias]

Since you split the elements between White mage and Black Mage for some reason, are you gonna split up summoners ability as well with some other class that shouldn't have it too?

LOL, you just can't stand that they went back to the early FF elemental split, can you?

[Enfarious]

LOL, you just can't stand that they went back to the early FF elemental split, can you?

Alot of people are, but there's alot more wrong with it all. Jinrya-Geki and many others are right, these changes broke shit.
Anyway why single out that little bit.
And why not ask, "Why would we move back to a system that was moved away from so long ago and not revisited until now?" the last, what, decade or more worth of FF titles have not used this split system, there's probably a reason ... I don't rember one in 7 8 (I don't remeber much of 9) 10 11 12 13 ... Probably just oversight there though, the old 80s way was evolved from entirely by accident and that evolution stuck because it was simply terrible ... wait that's not what happened lol

Do you like having things simplified down to only having 3 spell types to choose from? 8 too much to think about? does remembering what order the 6 element wheel follow hurt your head? Or do you just believe that the whole game should be rock paper scissors, that's what we have now, do you like it, I did in 3rd grade but then I grew up and realized that rock paper scissors lighters bombs hoses and light sockets could all be used ...

[Klive]

I the only reform I would like to see is more interesting combo options with spells. For example, areo line and stone line are very well made in my opinion. If you don't combo them, you have an AoE, if you don't get it increase the damage and become a single target. Make the two spell of the stone or areo lines function and feel like three spells.

Thunder and thundra also have this but it rarely used. Thundra stuns when not in a combo, I foresee this being more useful when PvP comes out. I think could of did something like this to the blizzard line. Like making blizzra combo from blizzard for better ice damage, but no longer binds. The fire line I feel they could of done more with. The combo only increase casting speed, honestly I rarely get past fira before the monsters are dead. Making Fire single target and making when in a combo the fire line is single target could of been a good idea. Flare already kllls pretty much whatever when need for AoE damage, our fire line maybe over kill in AoE damage.

Most FF have flare as a single target non-elemental nuke and I would liked that as well.

I do think, with a few adjustments the spell lines could be better. Reform might be overkill though.

[Vaymathias]

Alot of people are, but there's alot more wrong with it all. Jinrya-Geki and many others are right, these changes broke shit.
Anyway why single out that little bit.
And why not ask, "Why would we move back to a system that was moved away from so long ago and not revisited until now?" the last, what, decade or more worth of FF titles have not used this split system, there's probably a reason ... I don't rember one in 7 8 (I don't remeber much of 9) 10 11 12 13 ... Probably just oversight there though, the old 80s way was evolved from entirely by accident and that evolution stuck because it was simply terrible ... wait that's not what happened lol

Do you like having things simplified down to only having 3 spell types to choose from? 8 too much to think about? does remembering what order the 6 element wheel follow hurt your head? Or do you just believe that the whole game should be rock paper scissors, that's what we have now, do you like it, I did in 3rd grade but then I grew up and realized that rock paper scissors lighters bombs hoses and light sockets could all be used ...

Why? Because in a game where the developers are able to design the content how they want, and the strengths and effects of spells, there's not reason to give THM/BLM every element.

BTW, it wasn't really that long ago that it was used, Tactics Advanced (2?) I think BLM only had tiered of Fire/Ice/Lightning.

They could easily develope the content around using Fire/Ice/Lightning, AND that even means, if they want it this way, to have enemies that are not weak or even neutral to all the elements that THM/BLM have access to.

I admit, at first I was really (thunder) struck by the change, but once it dawned on me that THM/BLM would be balanced towards all (or at least most, hopefully) content, it doesn't bother me at all any more. I even prefer it this way now.

And go **** yourself. Insulting me just because I don't agree with you. Only children do that, are you a child?

They should just scrap the wheel for all but "element" type and run all the elemental type enemies elemental weaknesses on a more truthful and/or more cases by case basis. And, no, this would not be "rock, paper, scissors".

They could do things where, hitting robotic/cybernetic enemies take extra damage from lightning, EXCEPT, an occasional one would be insulated allowing him to be neutral/resistant to it or even as far as absorbing it, healing him or making him stronger.

I the only reform I would like to see is more interesting combo options with spells. For example, areo line and stone line are very well made in my opinion. If you don't combo them, you have an AoE, if you don't get it increase the damage and become a single target. Make the two spell of the stone or areo lines function and feel like three spells.

I like the chain for stone/aero too. I was thinking they should do that with all the elements AND also a backwards version, where if you use the aoe one first, then you can chain the single target version to become another aoe.

[Enfarious]

Why? Because in a game where the developers are able to design the content how they want, and the strengths and effects of spells, there's not reason to give THM/BLM every element.

BTW, it wasn't really that long ago that it was used, Tactics Advanced (2?) I think BLM only had tiered of Fire/Ice/Lightning.

They could easily develope the content around using Fire/Ice/Lightning, AND that even means, if they want it this way, to have enemies that are not weak or even neutral to all the elements that THM/BLM have access to.

I admit, at first I was really (thunder) struck by the change, but once it dawned on me that THM/BLM would be balanced towards all (or at least most, hopefully) content, it doesn't bother me at all any more. I even prefer it this way now.

And go **** yourself. Insulting me just because I don't agree with you. Only children do that, are you a child?

They should just scrap the wheel for all but "element" type and run all the elemental type enemies elemental weaknesses on a more truthful and/or more cases by case basis. And, no, this would not be "rock, paper, scissors".

They could do things where, hitting robotic/cybernetic enemies take extra damage from lightning, EXCEPT, an occasional one would be insulated allowing him to be neutral/resistant to it or even as far as absorbing it, healing him or making him stronger.



I like the chain for stone/aero too. I was thinking they should do that with all the elements AND also a backwards version, where if you use the aoe one first, then you can chain the single target version to become another aoe.

Nothing I wrote was meant as an insult. Sorry if that's how it came across. All of what I said was only meant to make people, certainly not just you, think about the system in it's current state. Being the best you can be right now means stack Lightning and cast thunder alot. I don't like that people defend this. If you or anyone else has ideas that aren't defending the system as it is now I applaud you.

As for the dev's getting to make a game any way they want, that ship has sailed, they gave us power to call for change, and then asked us to use that power. In every sense they asked us to offer up the frameworks that we wanted to see in the game. I'll be damned if I'm not at the very least going to share my thoughts and opinions. If the devs are on a roll toward what we have now, the unbalance and limited play options, and aren't derailed somehow we're going to end up with a game that is no more than who wears the most thunder+ gear for dmg, str/vit gear for war tank, and a whm and brd hanging out waiting on things to die. If/when I seem condescending or generally negative it's typically because someone came across as defending things as they are, or raged at the idea of change.
Again sorry if it felt that I was intentionally insulting you, I wasn't going for that at all.

I find most of the new mechanics made things somewhat boring and droll. 8 forms of attack on a given class/job no FF (I may be wrong there's some I didn't play, FFT away from the first, crystal chronicles, a couple others) has such a limiting list of abilities. Perhaps I should have gone more to that point than saying that the current system needs to be made so blm has all elements as the only way to make it right. I do believe that having things the way they are is limiting as hell.

The current setup is rock paper scissors. Continuing this and saying we're all good with the most functional way for a blm to work is thunder > thundara > thundaga > thunder > thundara >>> repeat. Say it's not if you want to but let's look at all the content and the suggested tactics for successful fast runs:
Take WAR WHM BRD BLMx5; thunder combo ?????? down; use hate shedding abils as needed and cooling the DPS if needed.

This watered down less than robust design isn't good, and people really shouldn't be defending it. Saying oh I thought it was bad when they did it, I didn't like them taking all the options and simplifying things ... but ... wait ... now that I see it makes a single spell chain all I have to do to win in most instances I think it's awesome.
I don't understand why anyone would want this less complex, system, unless it really is just that for them easier is better.

Whether tactics advance used that system, which I don't doubt, or not, you have to keep in mind what your argument is using as a strength, a gaming system that was geared toward younger players, players where simple is a better approach. Just like the original FF games were geared toward the people playing games at the time, younger, mostly 8~15. Today's market reaches far more but in the case of this game I don't think, I hope that, the target market isn't 8~15. FFs grew up and evolved, became more robust and complex over time just like the people that made up the large part of who was buying/playing those games. Games for the advance, DS, and all the gameboys prior; tactics advance included were geared for younger players.