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  1. #11
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
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    Aug 2021
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    Gridania
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    Andreas Cestelle
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    Jenova
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    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by AlienDiplomat View Post
    Apples and oranges. On one hand you are talking about raiders being bored because they can't have their daily roulette all be raids too. You HAVE raids. You HAVE savage/extremes. No one is stopping you from doing it.

    Compare that to gating non-raiders out of even getting to play the base game story AT ALL because they are forced into raid mechanics in MSQ-required 4-mans.

    Your problem is being inconvenienced because not ALL content is raid content. Their problem is being gated out of content they paid for for not being raiders.
    Pretending that raids are a substitute for dungeon design is a complete fallacy I wish people would stop using here. There is an ocean of difference between savage and dungeons and a large large amount of people sit in that range.

    So I ask you. Do you honestly, truly believe the upswing in difficulty in difficulty in DT is locking out more players than people who feel more engaged by the higher difficulty who sit in the casual range. Because to me the “engaged casual” has always been 14’s largest demographic and this is the only listening post I have seen any measure of pushback against DT’s casual content when compared to EW’s casual content

    (Also I stopped doing savage in EW so let’s not pretend like I’m some selfish raider who wants all the content to be tailored to ME)
    (13)
    As a healer main in this game for nigh on 14 years all I can say is that I’m tired. My role has been eroded of complexity and expression for 3 expansions. I’ve watched the tanks do my role for me for 2 expansions and my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears.

    I have no idea who modern healers are designed for but I know now it’s not me. This is the first expansion I’m truly considering dropping the healer role and not returning, so if that was the goal- congratulations I guess

  2. #12
    Player
    Shialan's Avatar
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    Jun 2012
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    Character
    Shinon Hisae
    World
    Shiva
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    Sage Lv 91
    Who cares? Just leave?
    (15)

  3. #13
    Player
    LaylaTsarra's Avatar
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    Y'sira Kurai
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    Halicarnassus
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    Conjurer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    Did you really just say the second boss of field station mechanic dark souls is an extreme progression mechanic and compare it to the rich and fair dead ends

    If you are getting destroyed by dark souls what chance did you have against the second boss of dead ends
    They even upped the difficulty of map dungeons. They were fine before. The same people here love to sing the song of upping the difficulty and excluding casual content where it was a staple before it fine.

    Casuals are going to leave and they've for the most part have been paying the bills.
    (13)

  4. #14
    Player
    AlienDiplomat's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Character
    Irae Tsukatsi
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Miner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    ...this is the only listening post I have seen any measure of pushback against DT’s casual content...
    I could post you dozens of YouTube videos talking about this problem with DT difficulty uptick in required MSQ dungeons. It is easy enough to do a search. Read the comment section on any of these videos to see how many are frustrated by suddenly being expected to have great ping (when often it is the game itself even if they are on fiber) and to prog through memorization puzzles and raid mechanics in 4-mans required to advance the main base game story quest.

    Anecdotally I could tell you about healers dropping out of dungeons frequently due to not having an hour+ to spend "progging" a 4-man roulette or MSQ dungeon when people repeatedly die to unimaginative, unintuitive insta-death mechanics.

    The best suggestion I have is that SE adopt a "normal" and "heroic" style queue system for dungeons much like literally every other MMO on the market to be honest.

    Players looking to be challenged in daily roulettes should have something to occupy their neurons. But casual players just trying to do the MSQ should never be gated out of the base game because streamers want more challenge.

    This would be a simple solution to both problems. Which is why I prefaced this whole thing as not a "hard vs. easy" problem but a SE is being cheap and refusing to invest the baseline necessary revenue back into the game to ensure there is actual content available problem.

    They are setting the player base against itself with this move to normalize difficulty across content to cheap out on having to design multiple tiers.

    Which is why they deserve to continue to hemorrhage players/revenue.
    (11)
    Last edited by AlienDiplomat; 08-10-2025 at 07:04 PM.

  5. #15
    Player
    AlienDiplomat's Avatar
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    Irae Tsukatsi
    World
    Hyperion
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    Miner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shialan View Post
    Who cares? Just leave?
    Anyone who cares about the game should care about why it is losing money and players.

    I guess that isn't you? So why post here?
    (20)

  6. #16
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
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    Aug 2021
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    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
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    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by AlienDiplomat View Post
    Anecdotally I could tell you about healers dropping out of dungeons frequently due to not having an hour+ to spend "progging" a 4-man roulette or MSQ dungeon when people repeatedly die to unimaginative, unintuitive insta-death mechanics.
    .
    Can you please provide an example here? Like genuinely. “Unimaginative, unintuitive insta-death mechanics”

    In the nicest way possible this just reads like “boss casts ‘left room cleave’ for 10 seconds but the AOE marker only appears at the last second”. Like I agree having two different tiers of difficulty is better but still where are these evil unintuitive mechanics in dungeons? And I’m not that talented of a player myself
    (11)
    As a healer main in this game for nigh on 14 years all I can say is that I’m tired. My role has been eroded of complexity and expression for 3 expansions. I’ve watched the tanks do my role for me for 2 expansions and my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears.

    I have no idea who modern healers are designed for but I know now it’s not me. This is the first expansion I’m truly considering dropping the healer role and not returning, so if that was the goal- congratulations I guess

  7. #17
    Player
    AlienDiplomat's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Irae Tsukatsi
    World
    Hyperion
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    Miner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    Can you please provide an example here? Like genuinely. “Unimaginative, unintuitive insta-death mechanics”
    Yuweyawata Field Station Boss 2: "Lost Hope"
    Four random players need to rely on their ping and spatial relationship ability to line up the spinning hand in multiple directions to navigate through zig zag paths to the outside of the room or they are 1-shot.

    Everyone I talk to hates the spinning hand mechanic, but they keep using it. Re: unimaginative + 1-shot.

    Yuweyawata Field Station Boss 3: AOE Spirals
    Absolute cluster of visually confusing animation effects. Very large AOE spirals fill up whole room rather than alternating rows as implied by the pre-AOE visuals (and every other similar mechanic in the game). Must locate the 1 or 2 small safe spaces instead. Very short duration between AOE circles appearing and damage vs. any MSQ-required 4-man prior to DT.

    Could also point to the jump to Raging Claw on Boss 3 during the hole phase where you need to sprint to the tiny area behind him in time to avoid being killed, while avoiding falling in the insta-death hole, WHILE spread markers are dropped on you.

    forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/516111-Yuweyawata-Field-Station-is-so-wrong

    youtube.com/watch?v=D0mGNw_Ps6Q

    Like I said I'm sure raiders and people that enjoy more challenging roulettes love this stuff, but it has no place locking people out of progressing the base game MSQ.
    (10)
    Last edited by AlienDiplomat; 08-10-2025 at 07:30 PM.

  8. #18
    Player
    Jeeqbit's Avatar
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    Mar 2016
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    Oscarlet Oirellain
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by AlienDiplomat View Post
    There is absolutely no reason they should be shoehorning progression raid and extreme mechanics into MSQ-REQUIRED NORMAL 4-MAN DUNGEONS.
    That's not what they are doing. You said you've played since pre-ARR, so you will remember that dungeons did not used to "explain" mechanics. To this day, you can do a lot of ARR and HW sidequest dungeons and the mechanics have no telegraphs and no explanation. You just have to get killed by them and figure them out. Of course, due to battle system changes, we DPS our way through them now, but my point is this is the design they are trying to return to.

    Back then, SE were alright with the idea of a player being killed by a mechanic. They were alright with the party wiping 3 times and trying to do better each time. The balance was always that, you might die 1-3 times, but you're gonna clear it, because it's a dungeon.

    How about the entirety of Pharos Sirius? The last boss of Copperbell HM? The last boss of Haukke Manor HM? The traps in Hullbreaker or the octopus at the end that has wiped many parties? One of the first bosses got a lot of people in Tam-tara HM. What about that second boss with cannons in Stone Vigil HM? Even the last boss of Sastasha HM has sometimes got people due to ignoring tentacles. The last boss of Wanderer's HM applies Doom and has arena cleaves that have wiped parties. And that horse boss in Amdapor HM has devastated parties sometimes when they don't hide behind statues. Lost City of Amdapor had a memorization mechanic at the end!

    The bosses in Dusk Vigil have sometimes wiped parties, certainly when we couldn't out-DPS the mechanics. The second boss would often overwhelm with adds while the last could suck key players up sometimes. Then there's The Vault - the last boss used to be really tough and for its time you could argue they were "raid mechanics" like tethers you need to split. The last boss of Neverreap had a fun little knockback mechanic that knocked a lot of people off the edge, do we want to call that a raid mechanic since they do it in Worqor Zormor?

    What about the second boss in Bardam's Mettle that any sprout is likely to fail, Mist Dragon or the element boss in Castrum Abania?

    Obviously, as time went on, they started to telegraph the mechanics in such a way that it was far more obvious what you were supposed to do. It became so obvious what you were meant to do, that we got the final alliance raid in Endwalker that had GIGANTIC arrows pointing where we need to stand. A lot of people's reaction was that they felt it was boring.

    So all they have done is created mechanics without an explanation and your job is not to be perfect at them. Your job is not to never get vulns. Your job is just to figure out the mechanics the more times you do it, and over time, you'll get better at them. This is how it was in ARR, HW and (occasionally) Stormblood. You'd often clear, not cleanly, but on subsequent runs you would gradually become better at it because of experience.

    Yuweyawata Field Station is a perfect example. It actually names abilities "Dark Souls" as an overt reference to the masochistic games by the same name, and throws in a literal finger mechanic as if to say clearly what they feel about the terrible server lag making this game no place for such latency-dependent mechanics.
    If they are that much of a problem, you could just stop attacking and focus on moving. It's the greed that usually causes people to get hit by that mechanic. I also believe that getting hit by that once is usually fine.

    More problematic for some players might be the doom mechanic, but it's usually not a problem due to there being a healer, RDM, SMN or the tank just solos the rest of it. And it's even less of a problem now, because we can use Phoenix Downs in battle.
    (20)
    Last edited by Jeeqbit; 08-10-2025 at 07:32 PM.

  9. #19
    Player
    AlienDiplomat's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Irae Tsukatsi
    World
    Hyperion
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    Miner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeeqbit View Post
    That's not what they are doing...

    ...and it's even less of a problem now, because we can use Phoenix Downs in battle.
    It IS what they are doing now. Less time between animation telegraphs and damage. More damage in general. More memory/spatial visualization mechanics. More instant death mechanics.

    I absolutely KNEW the change to Phoenix Down was a bad sign.

    It tells me SE has no intention of investing the bare minimum in this sinking ship to add multiple difficulty modes to dungeons to appease challenge seekers without locking casuals out of the base quest.

    It tells me they are going to continue to skimp and cut corners while pandering to the most vocal streamer minority with continued shoehorning of difficulty into MSQ content and say "but you can rez now," as if the ability to get scraped off the floor repeatedly makes people who don't like raiding feel any better about being humiliated just so they can play the base game quest.

    As if the average casual player, even if they DO get carried through these base game dungeons, will EVER want to play them again.

    It is a cop out to avoid spending money on the game, nothing more.
    (11)

  10. #20
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
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    Aug 2021
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    Gridania
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    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by AlienDiplomat View Post
    Yuweyawata Field Station Boss 2: "Lost Hope"
    Four random players need to rely on their ping and spatial relationship ability to line up the spinning hand in multiple directions to navigate through zig zag paths to the outside of the room or they are 1-shot.

    Everyone I talk to hates the spinning hand mechanic, but they keep using it. Re: unimaginative + 1-shot.

    Yuweyawata Field Station Boss 3: AOE Spirals
    Absolute cluster of visually confusing animation effects. Very large AOE spirals fill up whole room rather than alternating rows as implied by the pre-AOE visuals (and every other similar mechanic in the game). Must locate the 1 or 2 small safe spaces instead. Very short duration between AOE circles appearing and damage vs. any MSQ-required 4-man prior to DT.

    Could also point to the jump to Raging Claw on Boss 3 during the hole phase where you need to sprint to the tiny area behind him in time to avoid being killed, while avoiding falling in the insta-death hole, WHILE spread markers are dropped on you.

    forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/516111-Yuweyawata-Field-Station-is-so-wrong

    youtube.com/watch?v=D0mGNw_Ps6Q

    Like I said I'm sure raiders and people that enjoy more challenging roulettes love this stuff, but it has no place locking people out of progressing the base game MSQ.
    The AOE spirals are exactly the same mechanic we the last boss of the lunar subterene, like that isn’t even a unique mechanic. Hell lunar subterrane combines it with personal AOE’s while field station combines the personal AOE’s with the land worms which is a much easier mechanic

    Lost hope is fair, you can argue that mechanic is overtuned but that’s also one mechanic, not the entirety of DT
    (17)
    As a healer main in this game for nigh on 14 years all I can say is that I’m tired. My role has been eroded of complexity and expression for 3 expansions. I’ve watched the tanks do my role for me for 2 expansions and my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears.

    I have no idea who modern healers are designed for but I know now it’s not me. This is the first expansion I’m truly considering dropping the healer role and not returning, so if that was the goal- congratulations I guess

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