Overtuned MSQ 4-mans and subpar story ends 12-year journey

[Supersnow845]

Did you really just say the second boss of field station mechanic dark souls is an extreme progression mechanic and compare it to the rich and fair dead ends

If you are getting destroyed by dark souls what chance did you have against the second boss of dead ends

[AlienDiplomat]

Did you really just say the second boss of field station mechanic dark souls is an extreme progression mechanic and compare it to the rich and fair dead ends

If you are getting destroyed by dark souls what chance did you have against the second boss of dead ends

No. Dark Souls is a simple tank buster. If you read more carefully you will see I was pointing out it is an overt name drop for the clear design philosophy shift Yoshida has been publicly talking about. He specifically said he wants to bring in more Dark Souls/Elden Ring style difficulty (which I would term "fake" difficulty as it is totally unintelligent and "easy" and relies on memorization of physics-defying 180 degree weapon swing shifts, 1-shots, and "heat seeking" enemy telepathy, among other things).

Regardless the point here is that this sudden carpet sweep does NOT belong in MSQ dungeons that gate average players out of the base game quest if they can't complete it.

I could point out more of the actual mechanics of boss 3 in there, but what would be the point? People here are so hyper-tuned to shame and belittle people who don't agree with pushing these changes on 12-year loyal players in MSQ-gating dungeons that they won't hear anything anyway.

[Supersnow845]

No. Dark Souls is a simple tank buster. If you read more carefully you will see I was pointing out it is an overt name drop for the clear design philosophy shift Yoshida has been publicly talking about. He specifically said he wants to bring in more Dark Souls/Elden Ring style difficulty (which I would term "fake" difficulty as it is totally unintelligent and "easy" and relies on memorization of physics-defying 180 degree weapon swing shifts and "heat seeking" enemy telepathy, among other things).

Regardless the point here is that this sudden carpet sweep does NOT belong in MSQ dungeons that gate average players out of the base game quest if they can't complete it.

I could point out more of the actual mechanics of boss 3 in there, but what would be the point? People here are so hyper-tuned to shame and belittle people who don't agree with pushing these changes on 12-year loyal players in MSQ-gating dungeons that they won't hear anything anyway.

So a tankbuster that has a relevant name to the boss is a representation of a design change philosophy when yoshi P’s point was that EW was too easy which you should know because anything pre EW was much harder than EW

I don’t understand this modern DT philosophy of “DT is harder than EW so it’s a betrayal” when everything pre EW was harder than EW. Like no joke what were you doing in launch brayflox when SCH couldn’t leeches and PLD had no agro control?

Like people never seem to be able to define why DT is such a problem other than “but it’s worse than EW”

If you honestly believe gating average players out of MAIN STORY CONTENT if they don't play like raiders is a natural and healthy progression for the game, I don't know what to say.

SE will continue to lose revenue to this. As they deserve. Hopefully they can learn, unlike this community, that it is fine to design OPTIONAL content with radically increased difficulty, but not to gate MSQ for average players that are not raiders.

And likewise how many people did EW lose because people didn’t feel engaged in content they were forced to do

[AlienDiplomat]

@Supersnow845

Plenty of people define why DT is unacceptable. You just aren't listening.

I literally just pointed out that 4-mans required to progress the main quest should not be the target of significant increased difficulty experiments. You just ignored it.

Many have talked about how there is a big shift in DT to boss moves that are much faster (less time between telegraph and damage), have much less forgiving levels of damage, take up more of the arena with "clutter," lean more heavily into memorization puzzles and spatial visualization exercises, on and on.

EW was also not objectively easier than past expansions. This may be your personal opinion but it is not a popular one. Already in EW they were introducing a lot of these arena quad or multi-bisecting non-visual telegraph buster moves on bosses, where you have to pay attention to the physical arm gestures of the boss to know where things are happening.

But there was never a problem with groups disbanding due to not wanting to raid progress an MSQ-required 4-man before DT, at least in my experience of running hundreds of dungeons in every expac since ARR.

[Supersnow845]

@Supersnow845

Plenty of people define why DT is unacceptable. You just aren't listening.

I literally just pointed out that 4-mans required to progress the main quest should not be the target of significant increased difficulty experiments. You just ignored it.

Many have talked about how there is a big shift in DT to boss moves that are much faster (less time between telegraph and damage), have much less forgiving levels of damage, take up more of the arena with "clutter," lean more heavily into memorization puzzles and spatial visualization exercises, on and on.

EW was also not objectively easier than past expansions. This may be your personal opinion but it is not a popular one. Already in EW they were introducing a lot of these arena quad or multi-bisecting non-visual telegraph buster moves on bosses, where you have to pay attention to the physical arm gestures of the boss to know where things are happening.

But there was never a problem with groups disbanding due to not wanting to raid progress an MSQ-required 4-man before DT, at least in my experience of running hundreds of dungeons in ever expac since ARR.

Yoshi p literally said that EW was too easy for their design (a comment he never made about the prior expansions). I happen to agree with it but outside of the forums I wouldn’t say it’s an unpopular opinion considering it was EW’s biggest complaint on the combat design

Regardless it’s not that I’m not listening I just don’t necessarily agree. There has been a movement towards memorisation but not necessarily faster, it’s just that you can’t rely on orange floor tells, you have to actually understand the mechanic going on around you.

And like I said you say “you should never make required content harder” but what about the people who lose interest in the game because the required content puts you to sleep? Is there opinion not relevant

[AlienDiplomat]

...what about the people who lose interest in the game because the required content puts you to sleep? Is there opinion not relevant

Apples and oranges. On one hand you are talking about raiders being bored because they can't have their daily roulette all be raids too. You HAVE raids. You HAVE savage/extremes. No one is stopping you from doing it.

Compare that to gating non-raiders out of even getting to play the base game story AT ALL because they are forced into raid mechanics in MSQ-required 4-mans.

Your problem is being inconvenienced because not ALL content is raid content. Their problem is being gated out of content they paid for for not being raiders.

[Supersnow845]

Apples and oranges. On one hand you are talking about raiders being bored because they can't have their daily roulette all be raids too. You HAVE raids. You HAVE savage/extremes. No one is stopping you from doing it.

Compare that to gating non-raiders out of even getting to play the base game story AT ALL because they are forced into raid mechanics in MSQ-required 4-mans.

Your problem is being inconvenienced because not ALL content is raid content. Their problem is being gated out of content they paid for for not being raiders.

Pretending that raids are a substitute for dungeon design is a complete fallacy I wish people would stop using here. There is an ocean of difference between savage and dungeons and a large large amount of people sit in that range.

So I ask you. Do you honestly, truly believe the upswing in difficulty in difficulty in DT is locking out more players than people who feel more engaged by the higher difficulty who sit in the casual range. Because to me the “engaged casual” has always been 14’s largest demographic and this is the only listening post I have seen any measure of pushback against DT’s casual content when compared to EW’s casual content

(Also I stopped doing savage in EW so let’s not pretend like I’m some selfish raider who wants all the content to be tailored to ME)

[Stasya]

Apples and oranges. On one hand you are talking about raiders being bored because they can't have their daily roulette all be raids too. You HAVE raids. You HAVE savage/extremes. No one is stopping you from doing it.

Compare that to gating non-raiders out of even getting to play the base game story AT ALL because they are forced into raid mechanics in MSQ-required 4-mans.

Your problem is being inconvenienced because not ALL content is raid content. Their problem is being gated out of content they paid for for not being raiders.

Wrong take. FF14 is lacking a lot even in "raids, savages and extremes". There is 0 content loop besides afking 24/7 in limsa waiting for ultimate party to fill to get your 12356th totem.

My problem is that even people like you can't see that game is bad, not just your glorified till dawntrail story. The game was in bad state in endwalker too, sorry.

[Exinias]

Dungeon content in DT is great and more reactionary than previous msq content! I can't think of many one-shot mechanics in DT dungeons, but a lot of EW dungeons would have 5-7 aoes going off at once, so I personally feel EW dungeons were more "one-shotty", if you do get hit by a mechanic. DT dungeons aren't overtuned by any means.

[Mana_Azir]

EW was also not objectively easier than past expansions. This may be your personal opinion but it is not a popular one.

It legit was a popular opinion?? People were dooming the game cos it was baby levels of easy in some places. Heck it was easier to level up my Trusts in EW cos of how easy the encounters were compared to ShB and DT due to how things were when things were at their respective current balancing.
And looking at Arm gestures as a mechanic has been a thing since as back Stormblood even if i recall Swallow's Compass or maybe even further back