Here we go again

[Shinku_Tachi]

I'm not talking financial costs. I'm talking costs to the game itself. Every feature they have ever added has come at the cost of something else being trimmed down or tossed aside.

I'll repost part of my post from another thread that was addressing the need to trim down on the excessive use of visual effects and clutter:

Either reduce or simplify the visual clutter and telegraphs; or, reduce the number of mechanics altogether, thereby reducing the number and types of needed telegraphs, and make the mechanics you leave hit a little harder to compensate for the cut mechanics.

I feel like there are ways to do some of these things, while finding ways to compensate for it. Instead of just throwing things away. Like I suggested there, if the number of mechanics have to be reduced to deal with the problem of visual clutter, then have the mechanics that are left behind hit a bit harder, or even have an additional effect or something.

[RagAndBoneLady]

Oh well. We could but ask.

I guess us lazy insta win visual novel players will have to pursue the possibility of a more viable Cash Shop alternative, which certainly has no negative ramifications for everyone who is content with denying even bare minimum safety nets, in the long term. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Mawlzy]

I'm not talking financial costs. I'm talking costs to the game itself. Every feature they have ever added has come at the cost of something else being trimmed down or tossed aside.

I understand that every change SE makes has the potential to be a disaster. Equally, would it make sense had people not lobbied for Viera hats, on the grounds a potential side effect might be their asses falling off?

Totally fair, games are a leisure activity and I think it's totally reasonable to tap out when you stop having fun, for whatever reason. While I personally enjoy being challenged in 14's PvE and struggling to improve, I don't think not enjoying that makes someone lazy, and I apologize if I implied as much when I said earlier that anyone can do these fights with time, study, and practice. I get that someone might not want to devote those things to what should be free time because they just might not find it fun. I also don't believe I've used the word "demand" in our conversation, but again I apologize if inadvertently did, or if I implied that you were demanding rather than suggesting.

Oh you're absolutely fine, some of the previous was more directed at the peanut gallery in general. Besides, having been called "the worst human on the internet" I've probably been less than measured at times.

[LaylaTsarra]

Being an older gamer, been playing since ff14 came out, Meso Terminal is unplayable for me on the 4 bosses that chain to you encounter due to the dodge mechanics firing to quickly.It would be nice to have a easier mode choice when doing it with the npc's to "progress thru the story" as I feel it's better to npc it first so people aren't upset if i die as a healer. I am not asking for an easier mode for que'ing just for doing it with npc's heck i don't need any loot in an easy mode option either but i do feel that we all should have content we can get thru if its mandatory for the story.

The new aoe spam mechanics full time isn't fun. I clear dungeons and don't go back sorry I don't find it fun at all. I cap with hunts and have fun with pvp. I sincerely hope they tone it down for 8.0. I've been playing this game since 2.0 Beta and I never felt this way.

[Supersnow845]

Somehow in 7 paragraphs almost nothing actually relevant to this “scary hardcore community” is actually relevant. Let’s discuss each overarching point

Paragraph 1) everyone wants more interactive dungeons and when hardcore people ask for “more buttons” what they want is more engaging rotations. Nobody wants 5 pointless oGCD damage buttons to bloat your hotbar

Paragraph 2) this isn’t even hardcore players arguing this point. This is other casuals who’d prefer to be engaged casuals. It’s not “easy dungeons hardcore community has hardcore” it’s “if you make the dungeons easier then it puts the engaged half of the casuals to sleep”. Remember yoshi p’s “platformer without holes” analogy. That wasn’t in regards to people who could still easily clear content 10* as hard as dungeons

Paragraph 3) dungeons are part of the MSQ and one of the largest sources of tomes, you basically cannot just not engage with them

Paragraph 4) nobody is complaining about people on the floor people are complaining about people so far below the floor that in 100 levels of content they still can’t do a dungeon. 14 is incredibly generous with its skill curve. Hell for classes like healers it actively goes backwards. There has to be an assumption of competency somewhere

Paragraph 5) notice how things like chaotic and forked aren’t popular, it’s because nobody likes them, just because they are hard doesn’t mean the hardcore community has been catered for. Like nobody wanted forked current over a CLL equivalent

Paragraph 6) they can’t make any interesting content anymore and that’s a job problem

Paragraph 7) we all want more players, this isn’t wildstar, but many people also want to feel engaged in it as a game, this isn’t a visual novel

[missTori]

So I think you're onto something. A significant fraction of the player base only runs dungeons when they are compelled to do so. This is probably because they don't much enjoy running dungeons, and spend their time engaged with all the other activities FF14 offers. The mostly likely reason someone doesn't like something in a game is because they are bad at it to begin with.

Thus when confronted with the latest one, which they are required to clear so they can find out what happens in the story, they are primed to be pissed off, completely out of practice, and have no long-term knowledge of mechanics because they simply haven't run many dungeons over the last few years. And in some cases it's doubtless true that if such players just practiced more and ran lots of dungeons, they'd find the latest one easier. But many players do not, because to them dungeons are an irritant that only serve to gate progress.

The consensus in this thread appears to be that such players are not playing the game properly and should just leave. I'm personally fine with that for myself, but it does have consequences.




.

If people slog through the dungeons because they hate them for all 100 levels they’ll never get better and I don’t see why they then come to the forums and say the game is too hard. Like they obviously aren’t enjoying the game itself and I agree they should probably just give it up for their sanity. If people want a 2nd life simulator out of ff14 then I don’t know what to say

Elden ring is hard, I knew I NEVER wanted to buy or play that game. But I’m not going to ask fromsoft to make an easy mode for me because that doesn’t seem to be how soul games work

[RagAndBoneLady]

And yet there is an "easy mode" of some manner still. Because of players deciding to extend generosity to those who want to enjoy the Elden Ring lore.

Even before that people shared ways within the game to circumvent difficulty that may have assisted otherwise excluded people.

They may not be applicable in this case because of the MMO workings not allowing compliant freedom to adjust ourselves to a comfortable level in the same way as other FF titles do so that's why we're asking. The outreach is there and appreciated for the sentiment but not quite grasping that the devolving to hard carrying in the extreme cases is partly robbing the dignity, experience and FUN of playing and enjoying the game ourselves.

I get the just laugh off being dead thing but... When you're dead you're not doing anything to learn either.

[Mawlzy]

If people slog through the dungeons because they hate them they’ll never get better and I don’t see why they then come to the forums and say the game is too hard. Like they obviously aren’t enjoying the game itself and I agree they should probably just give it up for their sanity. If people want a 2nd life simulator out of ff14 then I don’t know what to say

I don't want a second life simulator, but my guess is without the venue, (E)RP and store-driven glam scene, this game wouldn't be close to making SE the money they need to subsidize all their failed projects.

You make an important point though. The fact the dungeons are so miserable definitely stops people getting better at them, because they're all one-and-dones for a significant chunk of the player base. You contrast that with raiders spending.... I have no idea... 1,000 pulls on a savage raid?

So we end up with an absolutely massive discrepancy in skill that leads to raiders thinking that non-raiders are taking the piss when they keep dying in a MSQ dungeon.

Do you know how people get better? Difficulty options. I would be interested in starting off a dungeon in baby mode. I might (with DS) get interested in seeing how fast I could run it. Once that became trivial, I'd have the interest to try a harder version.

But when those of us who are admittedly "terrible at PvE" (at PvE, note, not "the game") are confronted with something so beyond us we either get carried and never enter the dungeon again, or just quit the game entirely, there is no improvement. And here we are.

[missTori]

I don't want a second life simulator, but my guess is without the venue, (E)RP and store-driven glam scene, this game wouldn't be close to making SE the money they need to subsidize all their failed projects.

You make an important point though. The fact the dungeons are so miserable definitely stops people getting better at them, because they're all one-and-dones for a significant chunk of the player base. You contrast that with raiders spending.... I have no idea... 1,000 pulls on a savage raid?

So we end up with an absolutely massive discrepancy in skill that leads to raiders thinking that non-raiders are taking the piss when they keep dying in a MSQ dungeon.

Do you know how people get better? Difficulty options. I would be interested in starting off a dungeon in baby mode. I might (with DS) get interested in seeing how fast I could run it. Once that became trivial, I'd have the interest to try a harder version.

But when those of us who are admittedly "terrible at PvE" (at PvE, note, not "the game") are confronted with something so beyond us we either get carried and never enter the dungeon again, or just quit the game entirely, there is no improvement. And here we are.

But the trusts literally have npc that TALK and tell you what to do, my brain is melting over here
Like if you can’t beat it with trust then yes like your signature I would unsubscribe ( and I’ve seen you post monthly it seems like)
& side note even with summons and some aid on elden ring you probably still have to recognize attack patterns and dodge, which I’d say is still more of a challenge than a tab target MMO like this .

[Kohashi]

Honestly at this point I'm just pushing back against posters who are determined to believe that struggling players are simply lazy. My friends who have quit were not. I'm sure this applies to many others who, rather than coming here, have shrugged and silently uninstalled the game.

I'm not demanding anything. The change I an others have suggested is just that. A suggestion. I believe it would lead to better retention and less frustration, potentially for players across the entire skill spectrum. It's certainly possible SE would find a way to eff it up (have you seen the latest PvP changes?).

But it's something for the remaining players to figure out. I'm free of it.



Appreciate the help, was aware, but I needn't have been. Believe it or not I spent quite a lot of time watching videos by folks like Wesk and Cae and others to better understand mechanics, rotations, and all the rest of it. Guess I'm unusually bad at this particular game.

Oh and FWIW, Bardam's Mettle is by far my least favorite dungeon from that xpac.

I still don't understand why dying and trying again is a concept that seems unfathomable to some here. So what you struggle with mechanics, so what if you die, so what if you try again? Where is the actual issue?

Accepting help from others and relying on others sometimes is not a weakness. You will adapt in time, and you will be able to do it as well. And if it's way beyond anything that you can ever achieve/ "master" in this game, there are plenty of people who can help you/carry you.