Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

[Duelle]

In a normal party setting, how often is the hate cap reached? I'd vote to remove the cap, but even with it in, it's a theoretical limitation

It was also theoretical in FFXI, and you saw how that turned out...

[Krausus]

Actually the base damage of the Swords probably could use an overall buff, I can understand Swords needing to be weaker than other weapons in order to make up for the speed but let me put it this way.

Lowest DMG Ifrit Weapon- Ifrit's Blade= 102 DMG
2nd Ifrits Weapon- Ifrit't Claws= 131
3rd- Ifrit's Harpoon = 151
4th- Ifrit's Bow/Cobalt Arrow = 158
5th- Ifrit's Axe = 171

Seriously 29 base damage difference from the Ifrit's Blade to the next weakest Ifrit's weapon. MNK can get away with being 20 points lower than the Harpoon because it has Elemental Fists, attacks 2-3x a around, and a slightly faster speed than 2h weapons as a way to cover ground.

PLD doesn't have the advantage MNK does however, and weapon speed doesn't make up for the lower Base Damage gap especially when my PLD's hitting Ifrit for 10 and WSing for 100-200 damage, but DRG's, WARs, and BRD's are hitting 25-40 a hit throwing out 300-1k Weaponskills. The Enmity Adjustment is only a temporary band-aid, and falls short the longer fights drag on.

I might be sounding a bit selfish saying this, but there SHOULD NOT be more than 50DMG difference between the lowest and highest DMG weapons of similar types (IE:Ifrit's Blade should be a minimum of 121DMG which is within 50 of Ifrit's Axe 171DMG). I say this because, with this current trend with weapons PLD will only suffer more and more when/if the level cap ever rises, because that gap will continue to grow and grow.

If you would like an example of how this may turn out on the current trend, I point you in the direction of FFXI. Post Lv75 where Base weapon damage from 2h Weapons eclipses 1h weapons so significantly, 1h jobs have no place in a majority of endgame content without a secondary quirk like Treasure Hunter.

EDIT: Sorry got ranty. XD Should have been in PLD forums.

yeah but the DPS is pretty similar issue is how hard combos hit, they cant increase the base damage because then AA would be doing way to much damage with those attack speeds. If they wanted to raise PLD damage they would need to add a damage modifier to weapon skills for PLD or they can leave it alone and just add a modifier to enmity generated for PLD since PLD isn't supposed to dish out a lot of damage anyways.

[SwordCoheir]

Wait, wait, wait. XIV also suffers from enmity cap?

I was under the impression that they had learned that capping hate/threat/enmity is a stupid idea because your dynamics go out the window once the cap is hit, and had thus favored a system where enmity decays at a set rate for DPS and a slower rate for tank classes.

Yes there is one, I don't remember where the link is posted but I think Kaeko tested it. Thus far it hasn't been a major issue with reaching the hate cap mostly because there hasn't been very challenging content that lasts long enough to reach it. And I agree, it was a stupid limitation. Looking towards the future however, that same limitation will probably haunt us like in FFXI when/if the cap is raised or challenging content arises where reaching that cap becomes more obtainable, and even more so if they follow the current weapons trend and let PLD's DPS Enmity generation fall to the point it can't even keep hate. (Despite what people believe a good chunk of PLD's Enmity generation does come from DPS.)

[Rydin]

Yes there is one, I don't remember where the link is posted but I think Kaeko tested it. Thus far it hasn't been a major issue with reaching the hate cap mostly because there hasn't been very challenging content that lasts long enough to reach it. And I agree, it was a stupid limitation. Looking towards the future however, that same limitation will probably haunt us like in FFXI when/if the cap is raised or challenging content arises where reaching that cap becomes more obtainable, and even more so if they follow the current weapons trend and let PLD's DPS Enmity generation fall to the point it can't even keep hate. (Despite what people believe a good chunk of PLD's Enmity generation does come from DPS.)

Its a retarded amount of enmity though... like 27k or something

[Duelle]

Yes there is one, I don't remember where the link is posted but I think Kaeko tested it. Thus far it hasn't been a major issue with reaching the hate cap mostly because there hasn't been very challenging content that lasts long enough to reach it. And I agree, it was a stupid limitation. Looking towards the future however, that same limitation will probably haunt us like in FFXI when/if the cap is raised or challenging content arises where reaching that cap becomes more obtainable, and even more so if they follow the current weapons trend and let PLD's DPS Enmity generation fall to the point it can't even keep hate. (Despite what people believe a good chunk of PLD's Enmity generation does come from DPS.)

Raising the cap only prolongs the problem, not actually solve it. XI's issue was that people started reaching the cap and PLD became insta-useless because of it. Most people who don't understand how tanks work asked for extra enmity abilities. I was asking for a new enmity system altogether because capped enmity does not work.

Its a retarded amount of enmity though... like 27k or something

Again, prolongs the problem. Remember that numbers are much bigger in XIV. 27K may be a lot now, but two or three expansions from now, we may be seeing PLDs hurting -again-.

Anyhoo, has anyone made a thread about it? I'm sure I'm not the only one concerned about the implications and problems brought by an enmity cap.

[SwordCoheir]

Its a retarded amount of enmity though... like 27k or something

That's not unobtainable by a long shot. Voke and Flash both give around 500 spike Enmity each every 30 seconds, Holy Succor can heal around 1k adding potentially 1500 Enmity, then theres Rampart, Wardrum, Flatblade Combo, Spirits Combo, Cure, and Sentinel, overall it would probably take PLD or WAR about five to ten minutes give or take to reach that cap. Then you can't generate any more hate and it becomes a waiting game for another player to reach it (WHM most likely) or the monster to die.

Anyhoo, has anyone made a thread about it? I'm sure I'm not the only one concerned about the implications and problems brought by an enmity cap.

Nothing specifically attuned to it aside from asking for more Enmity generation. I have brought up the subject of increased damage on weapons before however, because like I said a significant chunk of our enmity generation is from our DPS and once enmity is capped there is little more for a PLD to do except contribute what laughable damage it can to the group besides assisting with heals.

EDIT: Besides even with an additional 20 base damage were talking jobs that are designed for DD who still have significant damage boosting abilities, higher base DMG, and/or attack multiple times in a round. PLD doesn't get those advantages, PLD would only get to throw out a slightly more damaging combos that might only amount to half of a regular DPS jobs damage will be but help him stay on course with hate early in the fight, and be a bit more beneficial later in the fight.

[Rydin]

That's not unobtainable by a long shot. Voke and Flash both give around 500 spike Enmity each every 30 seconds, Holy Succor can heal around 1k adding potentially 1500 Enmity, then theres Rampart, Wardrum, Flatblade Combo, Spirits Combo, Cure, and Sentinel, overall it would probably take PLD or WAR about five to ten minutes give or take to reach that cap. Then you can't generate any more hate and it becomes a waiting game for another player to reach it or the monster to die.

First and foremost... healed HP is not a 1 to 1 ratio with damage
a 1k heal only grants around 700 points of enmity

Also... the cap is not a straight cap... it is the difference between the highest and lowest person, in terms of enmity

which means the PLD would be capped at 27k enmity of another person in the party had zero enmity....

It would be really TOUGH to get 27k more enmity than the lowest person in the party...

Unless....

If the Tank has 30K enmity, the best DD has 28k... and the lowest person has 16k, you are fine..... but if that person with 16k enmity dies... their hate is reset
So now both the highest DD and the tank are at 27k enmity.... which means the DD could easily pull hate

That's the biggest problem I can see with the enmity cap

[Duelle]

First and foremost, healed HP is not a 1 to 1 ratio with damage. a 1k heal only grants around 700 points of enmity.

Also, the cap is not a straight cap. it is the difference between the highest and lowest person in terms of enmity.

which means the PLD would be capped at 27k enmity of another person in the party had zero enmity.

It would be really TOUGH to get 27k more enmity than the lowest person in the party.

Unless.

If the Tank has 30K enmity, the best DD has 28k and the lowest person has 16k, you are fine, but if that person with 16k enmity dies, their hate is reset
So now both the highest DD and the tank are at 27k enmity, which means the DD could easily pull hate

That's the biggest problem I can see with the enmity cap

The problem with accumulated amounts of any sort is that if there is a cap in place you're bound to hit it and then your tank becomes useless. I don't know why the devs here have a fixation with cumulative enmity and enmity caps when it was proven to not work in the long run.

I can admit that games without threat/hate/enmity caps work the way they do because in the event damage scales up (like what happened in FFXI post-abyssea), you can give the tanks a threat/hate/enmity modifier for that level bracket and continue as usual (largely because threat/hate/enmity decays over time instead of having something like XI had with volatile and cumulative enmity). You can't do that when there's a cap involved because all it does is make you hit that cap faster.

Enmity should decay over a certain period of time, so the tanks and DPS have to focus on gaining threat or pacing themselves respectively. Aggro-dump abilities exist for the events where damage and enmity generated by DPS outpace the decay rate and come close to overcoming the tank's own enmity generation. As damage scales, so does the enmity generated by the tanks.

PS: As much as I don't mind editing people's posts, kindly stop abusing elipses, please. >.>

[Enfarious]

Wait, wait, wait. XIV also suffers from enmity cap?

I was under the impression that they had learned that capping hate/threat/enmity is a stupid idea because your dynamics go out the window once the cap is hit, and had thus favored a system where enmity decays at a set rate for DPS and a slower rate for tank classes.

Depending on the rates of decay hitting and staying at that soft cap, what ever the real number is since unless SE decides to offer up all their equations we'll always be working with somewhat arbitrary values. Say 100/sec decay on DDs and 50/sec on PLD and Tanking WAR(Rampage Up Only), in the 30 seconds it takes between vokes they lose 1500 enmity between vokes. So even with wardrum flash voke @500 each they only maintain you at your DPS levels, since DDs aren't intentionally generating any hate but instead doing things to shed hate their 100/sec is plenty to allow a WAR to easily maintain his hate, never hitting the cap in a short~med length fight 5~15 mins. A pld tho after 1 min has only barely gained an extra voke or 2's hate because his DPS is so low and even w/ +enmity WSs giving 5x normal they're only getting ~1 vokes worth, where a skull sunder would get a WAR 3+ Vokes worth. That's the real argument imo for upping PLDs dmg, not to mention that gla/pld gets crazy boring solo 5 mins to kill a lvl52 mob, yeah you'll never die but come on.
If a sword had the same dmg value as mnk fists it would still be way under the DPS curve since mnk AA is 2/3 hits in ~the same delay as sword. It would however make a gla/plds WSs come up substantially still wouldn't match a pug/mnk or any other DD since they have no DMG boosters as PLD.

[Rydin]

The problem with accumulated amounts of any sort is that if there is a cap in place you're bound to hit it and then your tank becomes useless. I don't know why the devs here have a fixation with cumulative enmity and enmity caps when it was proven to not work in the long run.

I can admit that games without threat/hate/enmity caps work the way they do because in the event damage scales up (like what happened in FFXI post-abyssea), you can give the tanks a threat/hate/enmity modifier for that level bracket and continue as usual (largely because threat/hate/enmity decays over time instead of having something like XI had with volatile and cumulative enmity). You can't do that when there's a cap involved because all it does is make you hit that cap faster.

Enmity should decay over a certain period of time, so the tanks and DPS have to focus on gaining threat or pacing themselves respectively. Aggro-dump abilities exist for the events where damage and enmity generated by DPS outpace the decay rate and come close to overcoming the tank's own enmity generation. As damage scales, so does the enmity generated by the tanks.

PS: As much as I don't mind editing people's posts, kindly stop abusing elipses, please. >.>

what... ever... do... you... mean?

Train of thought for the win