Forked Tower: Blood Needs A Normal Mode

[Jeeqbit]

That could easily be typed out. So what you're saying is discord groups are pointless and raiders attempt to exclude casuals from an easy raid for no good reason?

Role assignment. Group assignment. No guarantee there are important roles without it being organized. SE could potentially address that by making a UI where people "apply" to carry out key roles and join a specific alliance party maybe (so make actual alliances like in an Alliance Raid so everyone knows for certain where they are standing).

Getting enough people is another issue that Discord solves. There's no guarantee that 24+ people want to do it. This wasn't an issue with Delubrum Reginae because before Echo was added, it wasn't restricted by weather and you could wait 30 mins for it to match 24 people. It wasn't an issue with Dalriada, which I recall was duo'd pretty quick after release? So if SE is going to require so many people, it's going to make it harder to PUG without Discord. They could have a zone-wide queue system like all the Bozja normal modes had to help maximize the number of random participants.

A lot of the mechanics are actually telegraphed like in dungeons. But then you have to think, people die even to the last boss of Skydeep Cenote despite it being entirely telegraphed. It's just that with a lot going on and limited rez, the callouts are going to help casuals avoid dying 3 times. Discord really is to help casuals more than anything, because some really good hardcore raider would be able to work out the mechanics if they'd ever done content blind and learned how to use their eyes.

The reminder to not care about DPS is standard in this sort of content purely because the damage output isn't normally important. Most people's goal is to either clear and get the mount or currency rewards, or get the rewards to augment their gear. Either way, they're more likely to achieve that goal if they focus on mechanics over risky slide casting and greed, which is a common habit among players. To be honest, people are more likely to hear than to read in the middle of a battle.

Most likely if SE did the above things and also removed the limited rez it would at least help it be more like Delubrum Reginae normal though. If they even did half those things it might make it more likely to be pugged.

As it stands, the design doesn't make sense for an organized group OR a PUG full of randoms that aren't on discord and it's just strange that this error was made when SE has run this game since 2010, and let's throw in FF11 before that since a lot of their team worked on that too.

[Mawlzy]

Discord really is to help casuals more than anything...

Oh Jeeqbit. That's adorable.

I'm going to screenshot and print that and hang it on my wall. That way I'll remember you when I'm gone.

[Jeeqbit]

Oh Jeeqbit. That's adorable.

I'm going to screenshot and print that and hang it on my wall. That way I'll remember you when I'm gone.

I'm just being honest. Most casual gamers have Discord, so clicking a Discord link is extremely trivial for them. I realize there are exceptions, but if I talk to an average casual player in the game and ask them for their Discord username, they will have one.

[Mawlzy]

I'm just being honest. Most casual gamers have Discord, so clicking a Discord link is extremely trivial for them. I realize there are exceptions, but if I talk to an average casual player in the game and ask them for their Discord username, they will have one.

Yes, I have one. I lead mod a Discord. And having sampled Discords devoted to FFXIV I would never join another.

But I do believe you are being honest; it's why there is actual value in discussing topics with you.

[RuriStone]

As it stands, the design doesn't make sense for an organized group OR a PUG full of randoms that aren't on discord and it's just strange that this error was made when SE has run this game since 2010, and let's throw in FF11 before that since a lot of their team worked on that too.

Yeah most of this sounds very reasonable until you meet the raiders calling people leeches, snipers and anti-social just for accessing the content available to them in-game. I don't agree with basing how 'good' a player someone is on if they perform all the mechs in a normal dungeon correctly for a crap ton of reasons to do with irl disturbances, forgetting the dungeons, simply being tired from work or illness that day etc. It's just mostly bs gatekeeping that perpetuates this attitude that some are bad and some are good with the help of third party tools (I've played with both casuals and raiders and not seen much difference at all in their play, the worst players i've ever encountered were in pf joining my savage parties when someone in the static couldn't make it and I STILL gave them a good chance to play before giving up on them). You just can't know how someone will play in this raid in the OC till you're actually there doing it with them. If people are purposely playing badly then yeh don't play with them again no issue blacklist is a good tool but I think chances of that actually happening when like you say people do want the mounts, gear, clear etc are really low but the chances of people accusing others of being bad players so that they can make themselves appear to be better is incredibly high speaking from personal experience from playing with people online in competitive games for years.

Everything else you said though I agree with SE have messed up and are now losing even more subscribers. I think they need to play their own game in the West to see what it's really like being a player like me just trying to do stuff in this game because I would bet hugely it's very different to how it is over in Japan.
I believe everyone and anyone who can try this content should try this content in or out of discord (their choice) but it doesn't matter what I think anymore anyway since i'm leaving it behind now. I am just a faintly echoing reminder of how the game used to be or how it could have been if people were a bit better to each other.

[Jeeqbit]

this sounds very reasonable until you meet the raiders calling people leeches, snipers and anti-social just for accessing the content available to them in-game.

They shouldn't call people leeches or snipers directly. Because that's rude, and is itself anti-social. However, this happens anyway in the same way that some people will link The Balance and teach a level 100 opener to a sprout asking for rotation advice in Sastasha.

It all stems from the fact that many people are inconsiderate and are lacking in politeness and empathy - the ability to imagine themselves in the shoes of the person they are talking to and what their mindset and feelings would likely be and be understanding about it.

These issues are not exclusive to these mythical "raiders". It's just an issue with how some players behave and there's nothing we can really do about it beside knowing that if their behaviour gets out of hand, they will probably meet a GM.

That said, using "snipers" in a general way in a discussion about Forked Tower is fine. It's not a new term. We have used it in the hunt community for a very long time. In our spawning and conducting linkshells we will say "they sniped it". But we wouldn't say that to them directly, because it would be rude. Instead, we'd explain that how the community handles hunts and invite them to our hunt linkshells so we can share hunts.

Again, there are exceptions, where someone would confront them directly and say they sniped - you can't prevent all players from being confrontational like that. And this is in the hunt community! Plenty of hunters don't raid, or if they do they aren't necessarily good at it.

I've played with both casuals and raiders and not seen much difference at all in their play

This is exactly why the entire argument being made that discord is for "hardcore raiders" is a myth. You said there is "not much difference" in their play, and that's because this is a casual game in general, and most of the people joining or clearing via discord are casual.

Most non-casuals who do it are not raiders, but achievement hunters. These individuals do all the content in the game, to get all the different mounts or achievements, so they play pretty much the year round in many cases. They aren't even necessarily great at the game, but with enough attempts and progression, they eventually clear things or wait until it's more trivial due to gear/unsync/tank privilege.

I think they need to play their own game in the West to see what it's really like being a player like me just trying to do stuff in this game because I would bet hugely it's very different to how it is over in Japan.

The culture is mostly the same in Japan. Same frustrations, except they think the developers cater to the west. Same issues with Forked Tower. Same issues with hunts. Only thing with differences is really PF culture, where they only loot 1 item each in Savage and only if they need it, whereas we are greedy.

are now losing even more subscribers.

Last I checked Lucky Bancho, it was at Shadowbringers levels (900,000). So it's kinda lost the gains it had throughout Endwalker. The Endwalker baseline was around 1.2 million. Beyond that was due to the hype of it going viral, Endwalker's "end of the story arc" selling point which brought more people back to the game than ever before and Dawntrail release.

What I am looking carefully for is if it gets to Stormblood levels. That's the one to watch for. Through ARR, HW and Stormblood, its baseline was more like 600,000. So if it gets back to that and is there a lot, then it's a big decline. But so far, I'm not convinced it will go to Stormblood levels because I think most people that were gonna unsubscribe already did.

If you see people not worried about Stormblood levels though, it's because things weren't so bad in Stormblood. Nevertheless, Square Enix would likely notice that way more.

[RuriStone]

They shouldn't call people leeches or snipers directly. Because that's rude, and is itself anti-social. However, this happens anyway in the same way that some people will link The Balance and teach a level 100 opener to a sprout asking for rotation advice in Sastasha.

I meant in general when i've cleared savages not just this OC raid ppls play isnt vastly different. So if you are saying hardcore raiders are a myth in general then yes and it's what I was trying to say in the first place when I said I didn't see much difference. I wasn't referring to 'mythical raiders' when I talked about their rudeness I was just using raider as a term to describe the rude group who play their game with spreadsheets, third party tools, discords, min maxing and application forms. Who are not mythical because they're very much with us in the forums and you've been in the same threads XD

So you're saying I should correct myself and call them achievement hunters? (To me it seems like raider fits better when we are talking about - a raid -)

I think what might actually be more mythical is the presence of GMS in the game currently tbh.

we'll have to agree to disagree about Japan I think the fact they don't like to use discord as someone else said is a big sign they do things very differently.

I still believe Square has lost touch with it's main playerbase and they're confusing the main casual playerbase with raiders and streamers sadly or perhaps think it's a way to get in touch i'm not sure but it's flawed. When I first started playing this game somebody said to me that they played ff14 themselves so they had a great idea of what players wanted, this really sold it to me but I don't believe that's true anymore.

[Jeeqbit]

So you're saying I should correct myself and call them achievement hunters? (To me it seems like raider fits better when we are talking about - a raid -)

It's mainly that if someone isn't a casual player, then you have to ask what they spend the entire year doing in the game. For many that's just collecting achievements or mounts.

In some cases it could be RP, PvP, hunting, Ultimates or MINE. But really, if people play the game all year round, they're more likely closer to an achievement type that just does all the content in the game or a wide variety of it, whatever it is, regardless of if they like it.

I think what might actually be more mythical is the presence of GMS in the game currently tbh.

They react to reports. It's really that simple. They don't patrol around the streets like a police officer. If nobody reports it, it does not get actioned.

we'll have to agree to disagree about Japan

My answer stems from seeing multiple translations and also interacting with them a lot on the cloud test DC. I made a JP friend there for a few days and we talked via translation. I've also had to convert things to Japanese in a server I'm in and I had to do a lot of research to understand their terminology, including reviewing numerous news articles that discuss the culture and drama in the game, and every time you realize that they're not so different over there.

they're confusing the main casual playerbase with raiders

No, what I think has happened is they:

• View casual content as spending a few minutes clicking mammets or doing a beast tribe quest.
• View midcore content, which we can define as spending more than 5-12 minutes playing, as Extreme, Savage, Chaotic, etc.

To be fair, Occult Crescent is actually in the ballpark of what people were wanting for midcore. It's just that Forked Tower having access problems for said midcore players is... odd, and is adding friction to doing the only enduring content they feel they really have, but makes sense if they view midcore as what I said above.

[RuriStone]

It's mainly that if someone isn't a casual player, then you have to ask what they spend the entire year doing in the game. For many that's just collecting achievements or mounts.

They react to reports. It's really that simple. They don't patrol around the streets like a police officer. If nobody reports it, it does not get actioned.
My answer stems from seeing multiple translations and also interacting with them a lot on the cloud test DC. I made a JP friend there for a few days and we talked via translation. I've also had to convert things to Japanese in a server I'm in and I had to do a lot of research to understand their terminology, including reviewing numerous news articles that discuss the culture and drama in the game, and every time you realize that they're not so different over there.
No, what I think has happened is they:

• View casual content as spending a few minutes clicking mammets or doing a beast tribe quest.
• View midcore content, which we can define as spending more than 5-12 minutes playing, as Extreme, Savage, Chaotic, etc.

Why do I have to ask what they're spending time on for a year? I don't know what your point is...I was just wondering if you felt they should be called achievement hunters not raiders but you were the one who brought it up not me. I'm happy calling them raiders it fits fine.

With regards to GMs well then the community do need to start reporting people more.

You have a relatively small amount of experience talking with Japanese people who more than likely do not represent the entire Japanese ff14 community it's not enough to change my mind but in your experience ok we're not so different. From my own personal experience of the West and it's community, from what i've read, watched and spoken to with people about Japan over the years I still suspect we are very different. Also I took an english lit evening course a long time ago with a guy who'd travelled from Japan to study we became friends he was very polite, friendly, caring and empathetic I doubt it's going to change your mind but mentioning it anyway to make a point XD

Making OC casual up till you reach Forked tower was either something they did which was just really strange or people are greatly overexaggerating FTS difficulty in order to get people into their discords which are probably dying down a lot after the disappointment in Dawntrail and how they are continuing to fail at putting content in the game that casual players actually enjoy not what they think casual players should enjoy. There is definitely some confusion going on somewhere or they're killing the game off on purpose like maybe they just don't care, maybe they have more important projects to work on atm. Either way they'll care when the money starts dropping.

[Daralii]

There is definitely some confusion going on somewhere or they're killing the game off on purpose like maybe they just don't care, maybe they have more important projects to work on atm. Either way they'll care when the money starts dropping.

They're working on an unnamed title that Sakaguchi's involved with and a Tactics remake, possibly one more. The CEO commented on XIV's population declining and basically said that everything is fine and Yoshida's experience with these completely unrelated games will loop back around to everything being fixed and everyone coming back.