Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[Aravell]

And you're letting your own bias show by trying to act like toxic hardcore players aren't a thing

I'm not showing bias because I didn't even mention hardcore players. I'm pointing out that there's a lot of people who are so heavily biased towards hating raiders that they cannot stand anything that shows them even in a neutral light, they have to paint raiders as evil, no matter what. These people very obviously exist and it's a choice they make.

I also like the part where you expect said casuals to somehow feel sorry for "the other side" when said other side has been nothing but hostile for years, constantly blaming them for everything that goes wrong in this game

You're ignoring the part where self-proclaimed casuals have also been blaming those "toxic evil raiders" for years on end now, but sure.

That doesn't sound like "kindness" so much as "coercion" given the implication that they still let the random die (and may or may not have caused it to happen themselves) and THEN want to "negotiate" by leveraging de-leveling over their head as a way to make them beg for a raise and then leave.

This is your personal interpretation because you believe that the organised group is being malicious. Raid leaders are merely offering them a choice, if they accept, they get raised, if they don't accept, they don't get a raise to prevent future problems in the raid. It's simply just making sure a single person doesn't waste the time of 47 other people through a very preventable mistake.

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

Well, there's the problem, the random isn't in the group, they are objectively a solo player because they are not in a party. If a solo player can report people for not healing/raising them, then anyone can go die to an AoE in a hunt train and report every single healer there.

[Kasumii]

Well, there's the problem, the random isn't in the group, they are objectively a solo player because they are not in a party. If a solo player can report people for not healing/raising them, then anyone can go die to an AoE in a hunt train and report every single healer there.

Splitting hairs. But I will indulge you. So in an alliance raid its okay to not revive the other alliances healers because they are not in your group? Because they are not in your party. So they are objectively not in your group.

Your argument falls apart because this is group content. Content designed to do as a group. So even if that player isn't in your discord group or your in-game party they are in the same dungeon and the same instance as you doing the same content you do.

You can make this argument ad nauseum but I understand that you desperately want to miss the point and convince yourself its okay. And then wonder why discord groups are so hated. /shrug

[Aravell]

Splitting hairs. But I will indulge you. So in an alliance raid its okay to not revive the other alliances healers because they are not in your group? Because they are not in your party. So they are objectively not in your group.

Your argument falls apart because this is group content. Content designed to do as a group. So even if that player isn't in your discord group or your in-game party they are in the same dungeon and the same instance as you doing the same content you do.

You can make this argument ad nauseum but I understand that you desperately want to miss the point and convince yourself its okay. And then wonder why discord groups are so hated. /shrug

You're ignoring the fact that in alliance raids, there's the alliance frames where everyone is listed there, they are in your group.

In FT, it is not an alliance raid, there are no alliance frames, any random player is entirely solo, there is no way to see them easily if you don't have other player nameplates on.

You are grasping at straws to try and justify reporting people. If the ToS truly works that way, you can die to literally anything in a hunt train or FATE train and report any healer around because they're not helping you when doing the same content as you.

I swear, some of you are just holding such irrational hate towards people who just want the best chance to clear content. It's entirely pointless to discuss anything with people who hold such hate.

[Kasumii]

You're ignoring the fact that in alliance raids, there's the alliance frames where everyone is listed there, they are in your group.

In FT, it is not an alliance raid, there are no alliance frames, any random player is entirely solo, there is no way to see them easily if you don't have other player nameplates on.

You are grasping at straws to try and justify reporting people. If the ToS truly works that way, you can die to literally anything in a hunt train or FATE train and report any healer around because they're not helping you when doing the same content as you.

Im merely pointing out the flaws in your logic. Nobody is calling for a rez mid battle either. But dead bodies on the floor after the battle are visible by anyone even if you turned nameplates off and I would consider not offering a rez in that situation harassment yes. You can accuse me of grasping at straws and compare hunt trains to an instanced raid if youd like. If it makes you feel happier and mightier that those diddly darn randoms got what they deserved do go off. Noones taking that away from you.

I am arguing from the point that it can be seen as a ToS violation because it is intentionally done to hinder those players from doing the content and in most cases even announced in say chat a la "we will not revive you". And if that ever happened to me I would sure as hell report people for it.

[Aravell]

Im merely pointing out the flaws in your logic.

And I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument.

It's grasping at straws at best since there's nothing in the ToS saying that it's illegal to ignore someone. If someone dies at the end of a CE and everyone returns to make it to the next FATE, should the dead person report everyone there? It's the same argument and it's very flawed.

FT is a public dungeon, there is the option to go solo there, it's not ToS-breaking to ignore players not in your party, these are the facts. Now if you argue that actively killing the player and refusing to raise is bad, then I'd agree with you, but if the player dies naturally through their own fault, it's not breaking ToS to simply not interact and just leave them.

However, if the party has someone stupid enough to jump up and down on the dead body like what happened with OP, then that's 100% reportable.

Forked Tower COULD have been a true moment of solidarity, given how hard it was literally screwing EVERYONE over and that both sides could have come together in lambasting Square-Enix over it, maybe even boycotting it, and that it would have spoke a lot louder if had little to no engagement and zero clears

I don't think there's any hope for solidarity since everyone has already been stabbing each other in the back over peanuts since early Endwalker.

[Kasumii]

And I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument.

It's grasping at straws at best since there's nothing in the ToS saying that it's illegal to ignore someone. If someone dies at the end of a CE and everyone returns to make it to the next FATE, should the dead person report everyone there? It's the same argument and it's very flawed.

FT is a public dungeon, there is the option to go solo there, it's not ToS-breaking to ignore players not in your party, these are the facts. Now if you argue that actively killing the player and refusing to raise is bad, then I'd agree with you, but if the player dies naturally through their own fault, it's not breaking ToS to simply not interact and just leave them.

However, if the party has someone stupid enough to jump up and down on the dead body like what happened with OP, then that's 100% reportable.

I will actually concede at that point. Yes there is no way to force someone to rez you when they can just claim they havent seen you.
I would say you're veering closer into reportable behavior if the random actually asked for a rez and you *then* continue to ignore them and are doing so maliciously.

But yes I have to admit my argument is pretty flawed and I did let my hate-bias blind me there.

I still think there is a lot of difference between instanced dungeons and normal overworld content but I think we can both agree to disagree on that point since further discussion would be useless and pointless.

[YovelaLindswood]

I joined late-Endwalker, so I admittedly wasn't here for the entire history of any casual versus hardcore discourse, I can only go by what I've been here to witness.

And well... it hasn't been pretty. Dawntrail was my first expansion launch and I was hyped for it, but it gradually became clear it simply wasn't an expansion meant for casuals, which left me (still going through Stormblood at the time) wondering where I was supposed to go from there if I wasn't welcomed later on.

Of course, Stormblood its self was quite the skill-check on all fronts for me (dungeons, trials, and raids) so now the issue of "am I too casual for FF14?" was being book-ended for me AND I had to contend with an increasing amount of mockery and derision from other players to the point I stopped traveling out of Dynamis (because apparently some folks on other data centers REALLY hate the idea of us being over there to cause congestion and/or assume we're stupid trolls), and then stopped doing roulettes when I felt like dead weight outside of Heavensward content (ARF and Mhach aside), leaving me with little to do after a while and lost and confused as to how things ended up this way.

And the more bitter and vicious people got across the forums, social media, and even in-game about "filthy casuals" as the expansion wore on? The more I started dishing it back that all hardcores are just all jerks looking to push me out of the game, with Square-Enix seemingly in agreement based on content releases so far. So even if I had gotten to Dawntrail, what was waiting for me anyway other than the same problems everyone else is facing? Would I have even made it through Shadowbringers or Endwalker given how Stormblood played out for me?

I won't deny being toxic in response to the other side, but goddamn if they haven't been toxic too, and it's really damn hard to show them any sympathy when they refuse to show any themselves, or how my overall experience with Final Fantasy 14 can be chalked up to playing the "wrong" game this whole time, and that it isn't worth it to keep going if this isn't and never was a game meant for me.

Unfortunately the game kinda promotes it. If you're wondering where the toxicity stems from i'll try to explain it a bit. The game puts in 0 effort to teach you how the game is actually played and because of the tos promotes witch hunting anyone who tries to teach you. Like I had a buddy who had someone tell him he was pulling wrong and how to pull mobs so one didn't run off to the healer or a dps as well as a good mit plan for adds on his class so he could pull two add packs instead of one. One of the dps then threatened him to report the dude who taught him something because he should be able to play how he wants. Which is just setting him up for failure at higher levels where people expect you to know how to play. This goes straight into savage where you're expected to know pixel perfect movement, all mechanics, a perfectly optimized rotation, really tight dps checks, and as a tank in his case know how to dodge mechanics without moving the boss as much as possible for melee positionals. That and being even slightly off can cause your entire group to wipe in fights that can be up to 14 mins long of perfect movement. Perfectly optimized play has been ingrained in them so hard and most have been griefed by someone who just didn't get it or refused to learn and they can't really do anything about it. Like in wow we can kick the problem and move on but this game you can get in trouble for that so you gotta leave and try to reform which wastes so much of 7 peoples time. This kinda toxic perfection bleeds down and clashes with the toxic casual group that will report you for even suggesting that someone could play better. I think its higher up in this thread someone posted the actual tos and its got some really low bars. Like I can get reported if I tell someone their dps is too low even though this games dps checks are incredibly tight when progging and their dps can actually be whats holding back 7 other people from clearing. This repeated over a couple xpacs of generally dissatisfied players over the lazy decisions of se and refusal to improve has left both sides of the community pissy and we've reached a breaking point where people just don't care anymore. They wrongfully take out on each other, and players like you who are new and learning tend to be the unfortunate casualties in the fight between the two groups. I'm a good example unfortunately and can get pissy when i'm running an ew or dt dungeon and the tanks small pulling or a healer refuses to dps. Since these are things you're expected to know by now but nobody can teach you on threat of report.