Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[Kasumii]

What some of you see as harassment is actually a fair and polite warning that if they choose to enter the content, then they're on their own as they will not be receiving assistance. It's to give the random player the option to back out before entering, nobody can stop them from entering, so it's only fair to notify them this.

If people start flinging reports everywhere, then nobody will communicate with randoms anymore. The random player will enter the content and be confused why everyone is ignoring them and leaving them on the floor, they would also be left without recourse since ignoring someone is not reportable. This would just further sour the experience for any random players.

It is actually objectively harrasment according to the games ToS I do not get why you cannot understand this.

""・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
(Except when in accordance with rules set by an administrator such as a Free Company Master)
Key Points
It is prohibited to make statements such as the following examples to try to kick someone from the party, content, community, etc. as if they are not qualified to participate. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you're going to talk like that, why don't you just quit?"
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Let's ignore them."
"Let’s leave [person] out."
"It's not worth wasting our time, you should quit."
"Don't join if your equipment is that bad/such a low item level."

Like what do you not understand? You are clearly excluding someone from doing content by doing this. Why do you ignore that point so much lol. As I told someone else, you don't have to like it. The randoms you accuse of sniping certainly don't like it, I don't like it. But that is how the game handles entrance to FT. This is not some PF people sign up for. It is literally "walk up and put in a cipher". Nothing more, nothing less. It is not gated behind savages and ultimates where you have to go out of your way to talk to an NPC to unlock said content, it is unlocked by doing OC by DEFAULT. What do you elitists not understand...

As for ignoring them and leaving them on the floor. See ToS again.

"For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

(Reviving someone falls under healing for me, its fine if you dont see it that way)

[Aravell]

And you're letting your own bias show by trying to act like toxic hardcore players aren't a thing

I'm not showing bias because I didn't even mention hardcore players. I'm pointing out that there's a lot of people who are so heavily biased towards hating raiders that they cannot stand anything that shows them even in a neutral light, they have to paint raiders as evil, no matter what. These people very obviously exist and it's a choice they make.

I also like the part where you expect said casuals to somehow feel sorry for "the other side" when said other side has been nothing but hostile for years, constantly blaming them for everything that goes wrong in this game

You're ignoring the part where self-proclaimed casuals have also been blaming those "toxic evil raiders" for years on end now, but sure.

That doesn't sound like "kindness" so much as "coercion" given the implication that they still let the random die (and may or may not have caused it to happen themselves) and THEN want to "negotiate" by leveraging de-leveling over their head as a way to make them beg for a raise and then leave.

This is your personal interpretation because you believe that the organised group is being malicious. Raid leaders are merely offering them a choice, if they accept, they get raised, if they don't accept, they don't get a raise to prevent future problems in the raid. It's simply just making sure a single person doesn't waste the time of 47 other people through a very preventable mistake.

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

Well, there's the problem, the random isn't in the group, they are objectively a solo player because they are not in a party. If a solo player can report people for not healing/raising them, then anyone can go die to an AoE in a hunt train and report every single healer there.

[Kasumii]

Well, there's the problem, the random isn't in the group, they are objectively a solo player because they are not in a party. If a solo player can report people for not healing/raising them, then anyone can go die to an AoE in a hunt train and report every single healer there.

Splitting hairs. But I will indulge you. So in an alliance raid its okay to not revive the other alliances healers because they are not in your group? Because they are not in your party. So they are objectively not in your group.

Your argument falls apart because this is group content. Content designed to do as a group. So even if that player isn't in your discord group or your in-game party they are in the same dungeon and the same instance as you doing the same content you do.

You can make this argument ad nauseum but I understand that you desperately want to miss the point and convince yourself its okay. And then wonder why discord groups are so hated. /shrug

[Aravell]

Splitting hairs. But I will indulge you. So in an alliance raid its okay to not revive the other alliances healers because they are not in your group? Because they are not in your party. So they are objectively not in your group.

Your argument falls apart because this is group content. Content designed to do as a group. So even if that player isn't in your discord group or your in-game party they are in the same dungeon and the same instance as you doing the same content you do.

You can make this argument ad nauseum but I understand that you desperately want to miss the point and convince yourself its okay. And then wonder why discord groups are so hated. /shrug

You're ignoring the fact that in alliance raids, there's the alliance frames where everyone is listed there, they are in your group.

In FT, it is not an alliance raid, there are no alliance frames, any random player is entirely solo, there is no way to see them easily if you don't have other player nameplates on.

You are grasping at straws to try and justify reporting people. If the ToS truly works that way, you can die to literally anything in a hunt train or FATE train and report any healer around because they're not helping you when doing the same content as you.

I swear, some of you are just holding such irrational hate towards people who just want the best chance to clear content. It's entirely pointless to discuss anything with people who hold such hate.

[Kasumii]

You're ignoring the fact that in alliance raids, there's the alliance frames where everyone is listed there, they are in your group.

In FT, it is not an alliance raid, there are no alliance frames, any random player is entirely solo, there is no way to see them easily if you don't have other player nameplates on.

You are grasping at straws to try and justify reporting people. If the ToS truly works that way, you can die to literally anything in a hunt train or FATE train and report any healer around because they're not helping you when doing the same content as you.

Im merely pointing out the flaws in your logic. Nobody is calling for a rez mid battle either. But dead bodies on the floor after the battle are visible by anyone even if you turned nameplates off and I would consider not offering a rez in that situation harassment yes. You can accuse me of grasping at straws and compare hunt trains to an instanced raid if youd like. If it makes you feel happier and mightier that those diddly darn randoms got what they deserved do go off. Noones taking that away from you.

I am arguing from the point that it can be seen as a ToS violation because it is intentionally done to hinder those players from doing the content and in most cases even announced in say chat a la "we will not revive you". And if that ever happened to me I would sure as hell report people for it.

[Aravell]

Im merely pointing out the flaws in your logic.

And I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument.

It's grasping at straws at best since there's nothing in the ToS saying that it's illegal to ignore someone. If someone dies at the end of a CE and everyone returns to make it to the next FATE, should the dead person report everyone there? It's the same argument and it's very flawed.

FT is a public dungeon, there is the option to go solo there, it's not ToS-breaking to ignore players not in your party, these are the facts. Now if you argue that actively killing the player and refusing to raise is bad, then I'd agree with you, but if the player dies naturally through their own fault, it's not breaking ToS to simply not interact and just leave them.

However, if the party has someone stupid enough to jump up and down on the dead body like what happened with OP, then that's 100% reportable.

Forked Tower COULD have been a true moment of solidarity, given how hard it was literally screwing EVERYONE over and that both sides could have come together in lambasting Square-Enix over it, maybe even boycotting it, and that it would have spoke a lot louder if had little to no engagement and zero clears

I don't think there's any hope for solidarity since everyone has already been stabbing each other in the back over peanuts since early Endwalker.

[Kasumii]

And I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument.

It's grasping at straws at best since there's nothing in the ToS saying that it's illegal to ignore someone. If someone dies at the end of a CE and everyone returns to make it to the next FATE, should the dead person report everyone there? It's the same argument and it's very flawed.

FT is a public dungeon, there is the option to go solo there, it's not ToS-breaking to ignore players not in your party, these are the facts. Now if you argue that actively killing the player and refusing to raise is bad, then I'd agree with you, but if the player dies naturally through their own fault, it's not breaking ToS to simply not interact and just leave them.

However, if the party has someone stupid enough to jump up and down on the dead body like what happened with OP, then that's 100% reportable.

I will actually concede at that point. Yes there is no way to force someone to rez you when they can just claim they havent seen you.
I would say you're veering closer into reportable behavior if the random actually asked for a rez and you *then* continue to ignore them and are doing so maliciously.

But yes I have to admit my argument is pretty flawed and I did let my hate-bias blind me there.

I still think there is a lot of difference between instanced dungeons and normal overworld content but I think we can both agree to disagree on that point since further discussion would be useless and pointless.

[AvoSturmfaust]

It is actually objectively harrasment according to the games ToS I do not get why you cannot understand this.

""・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
(Except when in accordance with rules set by an administrator such as a Free Company Master)
Key Points
It is prohibited to make statements such as the following examples to try to kick someone from the party, content, community, etc. as if they are not qualified to participate. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you're going to talk like that, why don't you just quit?"
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Let's ignore them."
"Let’s leave [person] out."
"It's not worth wasting our time, you should quit."
"Don't join if your equipment is that bad/such a low item level."

Like what do you not understand? You are clearly excluding someone from doing content by doing this. Why do you ignore that point so much lol. As I told someone else, you don't have to like it. The randoms you accuse of sniping certainly don't like it, I don't like it. But that is how the game handles entrance to FT. This is not some PF people sign up for. It is literally "walk up and put in a cipher". Nothing more, nothing less. It is not gated behind savages and ultimates where you have to go out of your way to talk to an NPC to unlock said content, it is unlocked by doing OC by DEFAULT. What do you elitists not understand...

As for ignoring them and leaving them on the floor. See ToS again.

"For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

(Reviving someone falls under healing for me, its fine if you dont see it that way)

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group." <--- btw that involves being in the group, and thats the point where it isnt against the ToS, every Healer/Tank is it not responsible for things outside the own group, if there is a random and i have my settings to show only group/alliance member names or what ever, sorry to tell you but then i didnt see you or anything

The ToS you are posting all the time right now, involves being part of the group, square cant and doesnt expect to heal/rezz people outside of the own group because thats as "controller" player way to annoying