Dear Community what even holds you in this game

[TheDustyOne]

I also suspect that in their systematic attempt to dramatically reduce or outright remove buffs and debuffs and other rpg elements from encounters, jobs and the game in general, they genuinely think that going for the "action/reaction" type of gameplay will reach more people and a bigger audience than things that actually require players to think actively. Ultimately I don't know whether it's true or not, but it's also betraying their core audience in the process and throwing the baby with the bathwater.

Those RPG elements were a decently big part of what I derived enjoyment from when I first started playing back in Stormblood. The fact that they're now gone is definitely a factor in why I feel combat isn't as fun as it used to be.

I remember Yoshi-P talking about debuffs that affect movement like heavy and bind sometime around EW launch, and how they were "unfun", especially when applied to the player (I could very well be misremembering such a conversation, it can be very hard to keep track of what he says sometimes). I get the sentiment when it comes to more annoying dungeon designs like old thousand maws, but sometimes those "unfun" elements are there BECAUSE they're something we want to avoid; don't want your casts getting interrupted? Don't stand in the AoE that would silence or paralyze you.

The "unfun" elements are there to make the fun elements more rewarding, stripping those away makes playing incorrectly only a minor inconvenience to playing correctly, and sometimes leads to better outcomes than playing correctly because the consequence is minimal and the gains may be more than worth it; why bother moving out of an AoE that'll only tickle you when you could get that Flare cast off instead? If that AoE was to silence the player however, now it's a threat, time to move.

[Mawlzy]

I remember Yoshi-P talking about debuffs that affect movement like heavy and bind sometime around EW launch, and how they were "unfun", especially when applied to the player (I could very well be misremembering such a conversation, it can be very hard to keep track of what he says sometimes). I get the sentiment when it comes to more annoying dungeon designs like old thousand maws, but sometimes those "unfun" elements are there BECAUSE they're something we want to avoid; don't want your casts getting interrupted? Don't stand in the AoE that would silence or paralyze you.

Funny thing to me about that is such debuffs are very much at the heart of current PvP. In Frontline we argue whether there should be a cap on the number of targets getting debuffed, but overall such elements are one reason PvP combat is far more interesting than PvE.

In PvP you can inflict these debuffs on the enemies you are trying to kill! In PvE, what actions do you perform on the boss? Inflict damage while avoiding damage. The poverty of thought that goes into current PvE is frankly shocking.

[TheDustyOne]

Funny thing to me about that is such debuffs are very much at the heart of current PvP. In Frontline we argue whether there should be a cap on the number of targets getting debuffed, but overall such elements are one reason PvP combat is far more interesting than PvE.

In PvP you can inflict these debuffs on the enemies you are trying to kill! In PvE, what actions do you perform on the boss? Inflict damage while avoiding damage. The poverty of thought that goes into current PvE is frankly shocking.

The more I look at PvP kits for jobs, the more I wonder why they don't show that kind of creativity in PvE. I know they can't just import them one-to-one, but the jobs each have a solid core theme and mechanic, and they're far less homogenous amongst the roles. SCH being able to use Deployment for either spreading their shields or their DoTs is something I'd take in PvE in a heartbeat, if only to relive the glory days of Bane existing.

It's rather interesting how back when I first started playing, no one took PvP in this game all that seriously; you play XIV for the PvE and just ignore PvP unless you wanted cosmetics. Nowadays I think the opposite is true. It just annoys me that in order to play the jobs I find interesting, I have to play them in a game mode I've never been fully fond of; I prefer fighting bosses rather than players.

[Mawlzy]

The more I look at PvP kits for jobs, the more I wonder why they don't show that kind of creativity in PvE. I know they can't just import them one-to-one, but the jobs each have a solid core theme and mechanic, and they're far less homogenous amongst the roles. SCH being able to use Deployment for either spreading their shields or their DoTs is something I'd take in PvE in a heartbeat, if only to relive the glory days of Bane existing.

It's rather interesting how back when I first started playing, no one took PvP in this game all that seriously; you play XIV for the PvE and just ignore PvP unless you wanted cosmetics. Nowadays I think the opposite is true. It just annoys me that in order to play the jobs I find interesting, I have to play them in a game mode I've never been fully fond of; I prefer fighting bosses rather than players.

Yeah, I'd love to know what is going on behind the scenes.

My guess is that, because PvP has been a niche mode as you say, PvP devs are under fewer constraints and oversight. And when they have made mistakes over the last year, they appear to have listened to player feedback and corrected them.

I'd love to see more players give it a go. And for PvE to incorporate some of the design philosophy.

[CidHeiral]

Those RPG elements were a decently big part of what I derived enjoyment from when I first started playing back in Stormblood. The fact that they're now gone is definitely a factor in why I feel combat isn't as fun as it used to be.

I remember Yoshi-P talking about debuffs that affect movement like heavy and bind sometime around EW launch, and how they were "unfun", especially when applied to the player (I could very well be misremembering such a conversation, it can be very hard to keep track of what he says sometimes).

If you're not already aware you may be pleased to learn that gameplay like that has returned in the most recent raid tier. For example, during the M6S add phase a mob spawns and starts running at a healer. The melee have to rotate their stuns to slow it down long enough to kill it before it reaches the healer and one shots them.

The "unfun" elements are there to make the fun elements more rewarding, stripping those away makes playing incorrectly only a minor inconvenience to playing correctly, and sometimes leads to better outcomes than playing correctly because the consequence is minimal and the gains may be more than worth it; why bother moving out of an AoE that'll only tickle you when you could get that Flare cast off instead? If that AoE was to silence the player however, now it's a threat, time to move.

AOEs in harder content usually either kill you outright or hit you with a damage down which will make you fail the enrage check, so I'm assuming you're referring to normal difficulty. I don't disagree that they could slap a little harder but it's a fine line the devs have to walk. I think for the most part normal difficulty stuff is in a decent spot between requiring you to be awake to win and not brick walling casual players. The FFXI alliance raid was pleasantly spicy compared to the EW series.

[Valence]

Those RPG elements were a decently big part of what I derived enjoyment from when I first started playing back in Stormblood. The fact that they're now gone is definitely a factor in why I feel combat isn't as fun as it used to be.

I remember Yoshi-P talking about debuffs that affect movement like heavy and bind sometime around EW launch, and how they were "unfun", especially when applied to the player (I could very well be misremembering such a conversation, it can be very hard to keep track of what he says sometimes). I get the sentiment when it comes to more annoying dungeon designs like old thousand maws, but sometimes those "unfun" elements are there BECAUSE they're something we want to avoid; don't want your casts getting interrupted? Don't stand in the AoE that would silence or paralyze you.

The "unfun" elements are there to make the fun elements more rewarding, stripping those away makes playing incorrectly only a minor inconvenience to playing correctly, and sometimes leads to better outcomes than playing correctly because the consequence is minimal and the gains may be more than worth it; why bother moving out of an AoE that'll only tickle you when you could get that Flare cast off instead? If that AoE was to silence the player however, now it's a threat, time to move.

Curious how unfun is in the eye of the beholder, does it?
And suddenly all those elements are back in force in pvp, so what is it? Surely new pvp would be widely unpopular if said elements were unfun? Yet it's been consistently the most praised part of the game's combat systems right now, especially in terms of job identity and intricacies.

Yeah, I'd love to know what is going on behind the scenes.

My guess is that, because PvP has been a niche mode as you say, PvP devs are under fewer constraints and oversight. And when they have made mistakes over the last year, they appear to have listened to player feedback and corrected them.

I'd love to see more players give it a go. And for PvE to incorporate some of the design philosophy.

It's possible pvp is the new retirement home they designed for all those pesky vets whining about the game and getting in the way of their glorious new reactionary based pve where every job can be played by an automated macro.

If you're not already aware you may be pleased to learn that gameplay like that has returned in the most recent raid tier. For example, during the M6S add phase a mob spawns and starts running at a healer. The melee have to rotate their stuns to slow it down long enough to kill it before it reaches the healer and one shots them.

I'm happy about it, but it ain't gonna bring me back if the 3 other fights are just more of the same DDR garbage. Not gonna bother trudging through this just to experience M6S, and that's not even the whole of the fight either. It's just there as an experiment, and seeing how it's been received, I'm not even sure they're going to consider it a success. They do too little too late.

The FFXI alliance raid was pleasantly spicy compared to the EW series.

Felt pretty much the same to me but your mileage may vary. I'll give bonus points for the 3rd boss that had some manner of lukewarm (and arbitrarily scripted) multitargeting.

[CidHeiral]

I'm happy about it, but it ain't gonna bring me back if the 3 other fights are just more of the same DDR garbage. Not gonna bother trudging through this just to experience M6S, and that's not even the whole of the fight either. It's just there as an experiment, and seeing how it's been received, I'm not even sure they're going to consider it a success. They do too little too late.

Felt pretty much the same to me but your mileage may vary. I'll give bonus points for the 3rd boss that had some manner of lukewarm (and arbitrarily scripted) multitargeting.

Fair enough. You hate the "DDR" fight design at a very core level and I'm fine with it so I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye here. We'll just have to wait and see how fights continue to evolve I suppose.

[Mawlzy]

It's possible pvp is the new retirement home they designed for all those pesky vets whining about the game and getting in the way of their glorious new reactionary based pve where every job can be played by an automated macro.

Then I will happily continue to ignore PvE, play my assigned mode, and take afternoon naps.

Hopefully there'll be lemoncakes.

[Novarius]

Honestly I really enjoyed the current Cruiserweight Savage raid tier and that's held my attention in game for a good while, it felt like the devs really took the gloves off again and weren't afraid to be more experimental with the fights... it's definitely the toughest Savage tier in a while, but for all the right reasons, I hope we see this design philosophy transfer over to the next Ultimate as FRU was slightly pedestrian for my tastes and I'd like to see something refereshing - a proper Ultimate add phase would be interesting considering what they cooked up with M6S...

Aside from that I've had my hands full going for Necromancer trying to solo POTD and I'm really looking forward to delving into Occult Crescent with my static, FC and other friends... There's definitely content to keep me playing, but I have to agree that it would nice to see a lot of this stuff sooner, especially Field Exploration/Operations, I feel that's like the MMO lifeblood of the game where the casual and hardcore crowd and everyone in between can buddy up for really cool content...