The Black Mage simplification completely misses the point

[Realfoxy]

So here's another thread about the changes to Black Mage. From 6.0 until now, Black Mage has been getting changes to make it easier and easier to play, so we can assume that SE thinks that each successive change still hasn't been enough. However, throughout the entirety of Endwalker and Dawntrail (with the sole exception of 7.0 BLM which was a rushed mess), skilled Black Mage players have been able to maintain full uptime using the tools the job has, in nearly all instanced content, without issue.

I would contend that the problem isn't that Black Mage hasn't got enough instant casts, or that the timer is too unforgiving. The problem that stops people sticking with the job is that the leveling experience completely fails to prepare you for max level content, and nearly ALL of the simplification that SE has done has been at the high levels of the job. At that point, new players will likely have already quit playing it.

For example, let's take a look at Ley Lines. You get Ley Lines at level 52, but you get Retrace at level 96. By the time you reach level 96, you should already have some idea of how to place Ley Lines. You've probable figured out that you should place it right near where the MT stands, and maybe that in the middle of the arena is a good spot. So why is the skill that makes LL easier and friendlier right near the end of the leveling experience?

Here's another one. Triplecast, and managing its two charges, is one of the most important tools in your arsenal for handling the movement in a level 90 or level 100 Savage raid. Most often you'll use Xenoglossy, weave triplecast, then start running around to do Alarm Pheromones or whatever. And when you do get triplecast? You only get it at level 66, and you don't even get a nice way to weave it until level 80 when you get instant Foul. That's 80 levels of missed opportunity where you could have been teaching people how to handle the job.

And finally, let's look at Despair. Which, most recently, was changed to be an instant cast...at level 100. If anyone levels BLM to 100 they're probably sticking to the job, so why are they making it easier to play right at the very top end?

TL;DR: I still maintain that BLM's difficulty is a job is overestimated a lot by the community, it simply makes you think about the content in a different, not necessarily harder way. The issue is that leveling the job fails to prepare people for the way it plays at max level, and that is due to the fact that despite SE's repeated changes to the job, the sub max level experience remains the same.

[Carighan]

I keep saying that Black Mage suffers from the same problem Scholar does:

It's a hodgepodge of nowadays barely-fitting ideas that got cobbled together over the years.
Individually, each of those ideas are neat, and many of them solved problems at the time in regards to their job. But it's woefully outdated to have so many of them around.

In regards to this "top-level only" changes, I'd at the very least:

* Make Flare Star a trait-upgrade from Despair instead of an extra skill that forcibly needs Despair to be instant cast to fit. Make them both casted, both are also AoEs, Despair in a tiny 1y-3y radius (given its visual!), Flare Star in a wide 10y-15y radius. Flare Star also has more potency of course.
* Introduce the Fire/Ice spell without refresh vs Fire/Ice with refresh concept way earlier. It's weird how before Fire IV, the whole idea behind the job doesn't work the same way as after getting it. If anything, Fire IV would kinda be the ability you ought to start with?
* Make Triplecast a trait-upgrade from Swiftcast. With the short cast times now, it's not like the extra instant is needed any more. Declutters a bit, and feels conceptually sound that the "core" caster turns the single instant cast ability into a triple instant cast one!

Both of these changes would allow concepts to be introduced early that then naturally evolve. Could even have a Doublecast between Swiftcast and Triplecast.

[Arohk]

You doomsayers are really getting annoying, the game is in dire need of fresh updates and job overhauls.

Most jobs are bloated because they kept adding new skill on top of new skill completly ignoring the hotkey problems when you play with keyboard and mouse.

Also the game became a lot more movement dependant, a job that has to stand still all the time is not viable anymore, black mage is barely playable without spellspeed.

why don't you try it out first and adapt, maybe it is good, instead of constantly whining about anything new, this is why the game got so stale , lack of updates.

[Supersnow845]

You doomsayers are really getting annoying, the game is in dire need of fresh updates and job overhauls.

Most jobs are bloated because they kept adding new skill on top of new skill completly ignoring the hotkey problems when you play with keyboard and mouse.

Also the game became a lot more movement dependant, a job that has to stand still all the time is not viable anymore, black mage is barely playable without spellspeed.

why don't you try it out first and adapt, maybe it is good, instead of constantly whining about anything new, this is why the game got so stale , lack of updates.

Maybe instead of ripping the casters apart because “movement” square enix actually tries to make fights that allows casters to cast

I’m playing a caster, I want to cast

If I wanted to not have casts I’d play a physical ranged or melee

[Realfoxy]

You doomsayers are really getting annoying, the game is in dire need of fresh updates and job overhauls.

Most jobs are bloated because they kept adding new skill on top of new skill completly ignoring the hotkey problems when you play with keyboard and mouse.

Also the game became a lot more movement dependant, a job that has to stand still all the time is not viable anymore, black mage is barely playable without spellspeed.

why don't you try it out first and adapt, maybe it is good, instead of constantly whining about anything new, this is why the game got so stale , lack of updates.

From the sounds of this comment, it sounds like you're the one who hasn't actually tried out the job. Black Mage has more than enough movement in its kit to handle everything that's already in the game WITHOUT having to resort weird rotation tricks. Just using the job as it's expected to be played.

And if they can't design a fight around a caster that already has so many instant casts in its kit already, I think that says more about the lack of imagination from the fight designers than the design of Black Mage.

[Realfoxy]

I keep saying that Black Mage suffers from the same problem Scholar does:

It's a hodgepodge of nowadays barely-fitting ideas that got cobbled together over the years.
Individually, each of those ideas are neat, and many of them solved problems at the time in regards to their job. But it's woefully outdated to have so many of them around.

In regards to this "top-level only" changes, I'd at the very least:

* Make Flare Star a trait-upgrade from Despair instead of an extra skill that forcibly needs Despair to be instant cast to fit. Make them both casted, both are also AoEs, Despair in a tiny 1y-3y radius (given its visual!), Flare Star in a wide 10y-15y radius. Flare Star also has more potency of course.
* Introduce the Fire/Ice spell without refresh vs Fire/Ice with refresh concept way earlier. It's weird how before Fire IV, the whole idea behind the job doesn't work the same way as after getting it. If anything, Fire IV would kinda be the ability you ought to start with?
* Make Triplecast a trait-upgrade from Swiftcast. With the short cast times now, it's not like the extra instant is needed any more. Declutters a bit, and feels conceptually sound that the "core" caster turns the single instant cast ability into a triple instant cast one!

Both of these changes would allow concepts to be introduced early that then naturally evolve. Could even have a Doublecast between Swiftcast and Triplecast.

These are all decent ideas, but I think keeping Triplecast separate from Swift is better, especially since Swiftcast is a role action and Triplecast isn't. I'd also make Foul instant at all levels, and introduce Xenoglossy at a lower level to introduce the idea of an instant that enables weaving.

And I really hope they ditch the short cast times change. Massive change to the feel of the job for a very dubious payoff.

[Valence]

So here's another thread about the changes to Black Mage. From 6.0 until now, Black Mage has been getting changes to make it easier and easier to play, so we can assume that SE thinks that each successive change still hasn't been enough. However, throughout the entirety of Endwalker and Dawntrail (with the sole exception of 7.0 BLM which was a rushed mess), skilled Black Mage players have been able to maintain full uptime using the tools the job has, in nearly all instanced content, without issue.

I would contend that the problem isn't that Black Mage hasn't got enough instant casts, or that the timer is too unforgiving. The problem that stops people sticking with the job is that the leveling experience completely fails to prepare you for max level content, and nearly ALL of the simplification that SE has done has been at the high levels of the job. At that point, new players will likely have already quit playing it.

For example, let's take a look at Ley Lines. You get Ley Lines at level 52, but you get Retrace at level 96. By the time you reach level 96, you should already have some idea of how to place Ley Lines. You've probable figured out that you should place it right near where the MT stands, and maybe that in the middle of the arena is a good spot. So why is the skill that makes LL easier and friendlier right near the end of the leveling experience?

Here's another one. Triplecast, and managing its two charges, is one of the most important tools in your arsenal for handling the movement in a level 90 or level 100 Savage raid. Most often you'll use Xenoglossy, weave triplecast, then start running around to do Alarm Pheromones or whatever. And when you do get triplecast? You only get it at level 66, and you don't even get a nice way to weave it until level 80 when you get instant Foul. That's 80 levels of missed opportunity where you could have been teaching people how to handle the job.

And finally, let's look at Despair. Which, most recently, was changed to be an instant cast...at level 100. If anyone levels BLM to 100 they're probably sticking to the job, so why are they making it easier to play right at the very top end?

TL;DR: I still maintain that BLM's difficulty is a job is overestimated a lot by the community, it simply makes you think about the content in a different, not necessarily harder way. The issue is that leveling the job fails to prepare people for the way it plays at max level, and that is due to the fact that despite SE's repeated changes to the job, the sub max level experience remains the same.

I don't disagree with your logic but I think the reasoning behind is that they're keeping BLM closer to what it was in previous expansions in said previous expansions' content. That's what they have always done with most jobs except with a couple of exceptions here and there (until they do rework them from scratch and then it becomes just whatever at all levels).
They're in fact not doing this for new players or accessibility, but simply to accommodate current max level battle content, which is why I find those changes even more ludicrous.

[Azurarok]

From the sounds of this comment, it sounds like you're the one who hasn't actually tried out the job. Black Mage has more than enough movement in its kit to handle everything that's already in the game WITHOUT having to resort weird rotation tricks. Just using the job as it's expected to be played.

they can't stand dropping dps from being forced to use damaging gap closers outside buffs, I'd imagine they can't take being forced to spend an instant cast in a similarly lossy way

[Arohk]

From the sounds of this comment, it sounds like you're the one who hasn't actually tried out the job.

I think i have played it enough to have a valid opinion on it, and i see enough trash players who have no clue how to play it.

I hope the next job that gets a massive overhaul is Bard, because that job is just total garbage.

[Valence]

Oh yes please, let's rework Bard completely! I'm sure nothing is going to go wrong!

- Burst shot into Refulgent arrow is now a guaranteed combo. Ladon Bite into Shadowbite is now a guaranteed combo.
- Repertoire has been deleted, and PP/Bloodletter/RoD are now simple OGCDs on a 15s recast.
- Refulgent Arrow / Shadowbite now grant 5 gauge.
- Apex Arrow is now on a 60s strict recast.
- Radiant Finale now grants 80 gauge.
- Dots consolidated into a single one and IJs has been removed.
- Songs are now exclusively used to decide which OGCD is available (PP/BLoodletter/RoD), and to unlock Radiant Finale as currently.