FRU has been cleared without Tanks!

[Mikey_R]

When it's the only contribution they're giving? This is why Healers are actually the LEAST played job. Because it's BORING to press one button over and over...

Gameplay is a separate issue I have already stated is something that need work, but isn't the reason healers get left out.

I've played even AST/SCH in dungeons and when you're paired with the likes of WAR? You sit there and just DPS because the WAR has all the tools to keep themselves alive without fail. Same could be said of PLD/GNB to an extent. If your healing isn't needed, then healing is not a contributor - which is the whole point of the Role's existence.

So, Warrior, and to a lesser extent PLD and GNB have too much healing it invalidates your role. So it is the environment the healer is trying to be apart of that makes you feel not required. Which is exactly what I have been saying.

Yeah? That's where we're further shoved into this "babysitting" role. Where if something actually does go horribly wrong, we actually get agency. You can talk about this from Dungeons all the way to Savage: Healers are the "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass" equivalent. But if for some reason your DF runs don't have this? Then they're back to the aforementioned above.

So, hypothetical, all healing is gone from all other jobs, healers are the only ones who heal. Aren't you then babysitting everyone else? The role is quite literally look after everyone else's HP. Or, is it only baby sitting if someone makes a mistake, which can still happen in a scenario where you have more healing requirement.

Then tell me how this equates to how Healers should just "Play a DPS or Tank"?

It doesn't, that is the point. Different scenarios with different outcomes.

If people make the decision to make pre-mades, then they will do so and push this, making DF Qs longer because of the "optimization". If anything it's akin to doing the path of least resistance which is a constant for this game whenever it comes to content, no matter how you shake your head at it.

But that hasn't happened. Those who run with no healer probably ran with a healer in the past and changed it up. They weren't queuing into the DF so no change in numbers there. But, as I said, healers are still useful in DF to smooth things out.

Also for the record, you needed an equally skilled SMN to pull of Titan Egi tank back then because if your pet management was off? Titan would eat the dust and you'd be looking closer to a wipe - same for healers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjPiQ2Q_bCQ

SMN with Vit accessories, place him where the tank would normally sit, babysit his HP. Easy. No worries about tank swaps, no worries about the tanks cleaving each other before, during or after the swap, dps/healers know where not to stand etc. It was just all around easier.

[Supersnow845]

Gameplay is a separate issue I have already stated is something that need work, but isn't the reason healers get left out.


But that hasn't happened. Those who run with no healer probably ran with a healer in the past and changed it up. They weren't queuing into the DF so no change in numbers there. But, as I said, healers are still useful in DF to smooth things out.

So your argument here still basically boils down to “the titan egi clear is meaningful exclusion of tanks because ex is done through PF and PF has the ability to willfully choose to exclude classes while healerless casual content isn’t meaningful exclusion of healers because most casual content is done through DF and DF enforces a healer onto the party even if they aren’t needed and feel like a waste of space and because of this enforced DF the amount of people who actually organise healerless clears will never be a meaningful amount even though it would actually be easier if the system allowed it”

Do you not see how that’s the same thing except one is poorly hidden by the flawed system enforcing it? Would you have liked to be on JP and do ramuh ex in DF and have your DPS go “stay in DPS stance and don’t use agro moves titan is tanking” when you queued in as a tank? Because that’s exactly what healers deal with now

[Mikey_R]

So your argument here still basically boils down to “the titan egi clear is meaningful exclusion of tanks because ex is done through PF and PF has the ability to willfully choose to exclude classes while healerless casual content isn’t meaningful exclusion of healers because most casual content is done through DF and DF enforces a healer onto the party even if they aren’t needed and feel like a waste of space and because of this enforced DF the amount of people who actually organise healerless clears will never be a meaningful amount even though it would actually be easier if the system allowed it”

Nope, missed the point. Titan literally gets rid of failure points with almost no downsides. This causes parties to take the easier, less risky route. Since EU/NA extremes are mostly done through PF, this causes parties to exclude tanks in favour of the easier, less risky strat.

If excluding a healer from dungeons was the easier, less risky strat, you would see more PFs popping up with dungeon runs that exclude a healer. You don't though. Now, groups of friends might form a light party and queue that way, but that also doesn't necessarily mean there is an imbalance. The fact that having a healer is not riskier/harder, you don't lose anything having one, infact, it is safer. So there tends to be no problems with running through DF.

If you cannot see the difference in the 2 situations, you need to take a more nuanced look at the different scenarios and the differences surrounding them, especially when this whole thing is about jobs getting excluded based on the environment, speaking of:

Do you not see how that’s the same thing except one is poorly hidden by the flawed system enforcing it? Would you have liked to be on JP and do ramuh ex in DF and have your DPS go “stay in DPS stance and don’t use agro moves titan is tanking” when you queued in as a tank? Because that’s exactly what healers deal with now

I would have predicted that, if the titan Egi strat was so good, Japan might have had their first EX fight farmed through the PF rather than the DF, or at least leaned more heavily in that direction. This is obviously speculation, but I do think that shift would have happened.

I am actually amazed how you can compartmentalize both problems so much that in dungeons suddenly everything can happen, but in ex ramuh, it's suddenly so easy that "you just have to heal titan egi". I mean, in the majority of dungeons, the tank just has to press buttons as well. It's tomato and tomato. No wonder you saw them as two completely different problems...

Having a healer isn't a detriment like having tanks in Ramuh EX would have been. If you want a simple comparison, it is that right there.

[Supersnow845]

Nope, missed the point. Titan literally gets rid of failure points with almost no downsides. This causes parties to take the easier, less risky route. Since EU/NA extremes are mostly done through PF, this causes parties to exclude tanks in favour of the easier, less risky strat.

If excluding a healer from dungeons was the easier, less risky strat, you would see more PFs popping up with dungeon runs that exclude a healer. You don't though. Now, groups of friends might form a light party and queue that way, but that also doesn't necessarily mean there is an imbalance. The fact that having a healer is not riskier/harder, you don't lose anything having one, infact, it is safer. So there tends to be no problems with running through DF.

If you cannot see the difference in the 2 situations, you need to take a more nuanced look at the different scenarios and the differences surrounding them, especially when this whole thing is about jobs getting excluded based on the environment, speaking of:



I would have predicted that, if the titan Egi strat was so good, Japan might have had their first EX fight farmed through the PF rather than the DF, or at least leaned more heavily in that direction. This is obviously speculation, but I do think that shift would have happened.



Having a healer isn't a detriment like having tanks in Ramuh EX would have been. If you want a simple comparison, it is that right there.

That’s the thing, if you meet a (very low) bar of skill then bringing a healer IS an active detriment because they do less damage for functionally no positive gain outside of being a safety net the party really doesn’t need. This also allows you to skip mechanics and generally make the run faster

A healer is only not a detriment when the safety net is needed. But you can argue the same “tanks are needed” when the SMN was either really bad or the party was bad at managing agro. They are both just a facet of meeting the low skill bar needed to perform the off clear

[Mikey_R]

That’s the thing, if you meet a (very low) bar of skill then bringing a healer IS an active detriment because they do less damage for functionally no positive gain outside of being a safety net the party really doesn’t need. This also allows you to skip mechanics and generally make the run faster

A healer is only not a detriment when the safety net is needed. But you can argue the same “tanks are needed” when the SMN was either really bad or the party was bad at managing agro. They are both just a facet of meeting the low skill bar needed to perform the off clear

If you have the choice of using Titan where all you have to do is keep it alive, or, 2 tanks where they have tank swap, avoid overcharging, hope the other party members do not steal their orbs, properly mitigating have proper positioning etc. Which one are you going to choose as the safe, less risky method.

If you are doing a dungeon, remember the skill gap between bottom and top is larger, is it not safer to have a healer? How about if the tank was a Dark Knight? Does that change things? You only see the healer as a detriment because it makes the run longer due to less DPS. Tanks would be excluded from Ramuh EX because they would also make the run longer, by not taking a tank, you bring more DPS, you skip more mechanics, making it safer. Literally everything is piling up in favour of Titan Egi, whereas there are still benefits in taking a healer in a dungeon, even if it is a safety net.

[Supersnow845]

If you have the choice of using Titan where all you have to do is keep it alive, or, 2 tanks where they have tank swap, avoid overcharging, hope the other party members do not steal their orbs, properly mitigating have proper positioning etc. Which one are you going to choose as the safe, less risky method.

If you are doing a dungeon, remember the skill gap between bottom and top is larger, is it not safer to have a healer? How about if the tank was a Dark Knight? Does that change things? You only see the healer as a detriment because it makes the run longer due to less DPS. Tanks would be excluded from Ramuh EX because they would also make the run longer, by not taking a tank, you bring more DPS, you skip more mechanics, making it safer. Literally everything is piling up in favour of Titan Egi, whereas there are still benefits in taking a healer in a dungeon, even if it is a safety net.

So yes in both runs it’s literally

“Do you meet the minimum requirements to exclude this role to make this run easier. If yes exclude this role for pure benefit”

The only benefit to not excluding the healer comes from if you don’t meet the minimum competency; which extreme pre excludes for

[Valence]

Having a healer isn't a detriment like having tanks in Ramuh EX would have been. If you want a simple comparison, it is that right there.

But having a healer is a detriment though. A pretty big one.

[Mikey_R]

So yes in both runs it’s literally

“Do you meet the minimum requirements to exclude this role to make this run easier. If yes exclude this role for pure benefit”

The only benefit to not excluding the healer comes from if you don’t meet the minimum competency; which extreme pre excludes for

If you want to reduce it down to that, then you can, as long as you realise that every situation is different based on many factors, which means you cannot just conflate 2 subjects and say they are the same. That is literally the main take away from this whole thing.

But having a healer is a detriment though. A pretty big one.

Stop being hyperbolic, a healer in DF is not a detriment.

[Supersnow845]

If you want to reduce it down to that, then you can, as long as you realise that every situation is different based on many factors, which means you cannot just conflate 2 subjects and say they are the same. That is literally the main take away from this whole thing.



Stop being hyperbolic, a healer in DF is not a detriment.

If you don’t think a healer in DF is a detriment then you aren’t a good enough tank to exclude the healer………which is our entire point. If you are a good enough tank then yes the healer is a detriment

[Mikey_R]

If you don’t think a healer in DF is a detriment then you aren’t a good enough tank to exclude the healer………which is our entire point. If you are a good enough tank then yes the healer is a detriment

This isn't about me, this is about the general community, who, in DF, can have a wide range of skill levels. Having a healer is just safer when going into that environment.

Ah! So we're back full circle to the enforced roles in DF vs PF argument. And you can bet if expert was strictly run in PF, you'd suddenly see an interesting shift in meta.

Probably, yes and we can have that discussion when it happens as it shows a clear switch in how the game is being played by the community.

And if your point is to say that some would be left behind after such a shift, then I'd agree, a small amount of the playerbase definitely would, like a small amount was left behind when double pulling / mass pulling became the enforced norm over time. if you want to compare this to Ramuh Ex where "everybody would be able to tank as SMN, easier than tanks", sure, but then it's comparing apples to oranges for the aforementioned reason that we're talking about extreme trials, which is a different audience that filters a different subset of the playerbase, and has a way higher skill floor, negating the problem of the players being left behind by the meta to begin with.

Yes, that has been my point the entire time, the situations are different, therefore need to be considered differently, in the same way you cannot compare tank struggles to healer struggles, or healer struggles in EX/Savage etc. compared to content run in the DF (at least in the English community). Even when talking about tanks in dungeons, there is even a discussion to be had between them, mainly the way WAR can very effectively get through a dungeon on it's own, but if you have a DRK? It is likely impossible. Another reason why having a healer in DF is not a detriment.