#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Azurarok]

I'm really not the surpised.
I feel like the people pointing at tanks being the issue with healer design need to realise about 80% of the issue is encounter design itself and not fully issues with tanks.

to go over what I've already said a thousand times on this forum, I do think theirs obviously some parts tanks do play in healer issues such as the obvious tanks strong mitigative and self healing values (with the most obvious example of that being warrior) but I think the Larger issue has always been with the content itself not even utilising our tank or healer kits properly.

I don't think this can be argued anymore as a simple matter of "remove x from tanks" it's we need to actually overhaul both so they play into each other correctly, but also most importantly this should point out that encounter design really should have more importance on role design.

I kinda thought the better part of this thread's posters agree the encounter design is a major issue, but I don't think tank survivability is that small an issue either. It really doesn't help that they won't stop buffing them when it clearly wasn't necessary, also.

The biggest one there imo is that Tanks don't have to trade off their dps to pull off their healing skills (with the sole exception of Clemency). It's fine that they have healing skills imo, but they need to come at some cost. If you get matched with a mediocre Healer it's reasonable to be able to help cover for them. It's not so much if they could just do it on the side for free, since that's when they're actually encroaching on the healer role.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Some levels of "free" tank healing skills are fine no one complained about aurora in shadowbringers despite it not really having any trade offs, it's more the amount on tanks that is too much rather then tanks having any non "free" healing skills, there doesn't need to be a "cost" for tank healing skills, there just needs to be less

I'll first talk about PLD/GNB where its obvious they are starting to trend towards having too much sustain, Paladin I feel like needs to just have the magic attacks not heal them, maybe let royal Authority have a small heal effect in general, Holy sheltron/intervention regen on its own isn't really that egregious, Gunbreaker Aurora should go back to 200 Potency while also lowering its excog quite a bit.
Warrior is a Prime example of just having free healing skills if you look at its toolkit literally every one of it's skills has a some form of healing I do think warrior can keep some of its "free" healing, but it needs to be toned down alot, also having aoe per hit heal effects is just unhealthy and trivializes any sort of "pull" a dungeon has.

My biggest issue is to do with Mitigation, I think people focus too much on tank healing, as a Paladin what's keeping me up in a pull is 90% my mitigation value because i have so many strong defensives if the group got enough damage I wouldn't generally need any sort of healing, trust me the healing on the holy blade combo and sheltron is nice but actually has no where near as much as a impact as my actual mitigation value has, I don't really know why people really think its a small regen that is actually the broken part that keeps me alive it's really not.

I think we need to tone down Mitigative values on tanks and boost some of the healers single target mits actually, all tanks 40%'s are really strong to the point where its actually just too strong I don't mind them having unique aspects but they need to be toned down along with our Mitigative tools giving two stacked effects, just make it a simple 15-20% + some small sustain effect and it would be fine.

All I'm saying is the argument of "lets just remove all heals from tanks and dps" isn't really a good argument onto how to make healer a actual fun role I hardly think it would even make healer fun because tanks would still have absurd mitigations... you maybe do one or two ogcd heals now... woohoo?

I also don't really play tank to be "I aggro and do boring rotation role" I actually like protecting teammates as a tank and contributing utility like veil, wings, intervention ect. I want more instances where I feel like I'm actually protecting my team.

In summary, some free healing is fine the current levels on pld/gnb need toning down and warrior is way over the limit of free healing tools, but I think mitigation also plays a stronger part in why tanks feel so survivable.

[Absurdity]

Some levels of "free" tank healing skills are fine no one complained about aurora in shadowbringers despite it not really having any trade offs, it's more the amount on tanks that is too much rather then tanks having any non "free" healing skills, there doesn't need to be a "cost" for tank healing skills, there just needs to be less

Warrior is a Prime example of just having free healing skills if you look at its toolkit literally every one of it's skills has a some form of healing I do think warrior can keep some of its "free" healing, but it needs to be toned down alot, also having aoe per hit heal effects is just unhealthy and trivializes any sort of "pull" a dungeon has.

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

Equilibrium only healed in Defiance, coming with the cost of either losing damage or having to use another long cooldown to temporarily disable the damage penalty from Defiance.
Inner Beast came with both short mitigation and strong life leech, but at the cost of not being able to spend the gauge on Fell Cleave instead.
The only healing that was technically free was the 20% HP restore from Thrill of Battle, but using it for the healing meant losing it as a mitigation tool.

And if you needed really strong self-healing to survive on your own you needed to waste Inner Release on spamming Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave, a huge dps loss.
Made you think twice about using your own healing tools instead of relying on the healers in your party, but you still had access to it if absolutely necessary.

[Supersnow845]

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

Equilibrium only healed in Defiance, coming with the cost of either losing damage or having to use another long cooldown to temporarily disable the damage penalty from Defiance.
Inner Beast came with both short mitigation and strong life leech, but at the cost of not being able to spend the gauge on Fell Cleave instead.
The only healing that was technically free was the 20% HP restore from Thrill of Battle, but using it for the healing meant losing it as a mitigation tool.

Thrill also expires. It’s why shields on tanks are generally well balanced. Because if they aren't used for soaking a TB they expire with no healing actually applied

[Gurgeh]

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

...

And if you needed really strong self-healing to survive on your own you needed to waste Inner Release on spamming Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave, a huge dps loss.
Made you think twice about using your own healing tools instead of relying on the healers in your party, but you still had access to it if absolutely necessary.

Agreed 100%. They need to start making healing a painful DPS loss for tanks. PLD always had a good heal, but even in casual it wasn't used heavily because it was considered uncool, to stand there Infront of everyone and your healer, healing yourself not even getting your combos out. (Also your MP will dry up).

[Rithy255]

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

Equilibrium only healed in Defiance, coming with the cost of either losing damage or having to use another long cooldown to temporarily disable the damage penalty from Defiance.
Inner Beast came with both short mitigation and strong life leech, but at the cost of not being able to spend the gauge on Fell Cleave instead.
The only healing that was technically free was the 20% HP restore from Thrill of Battle, but using it for the healing meant losing it as a mitigation tool.

And if you needed really strong self-healing to survive on your own you needed to waste Inner Release on spamming Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave, a huge dps loss.
Made you think twice about using your own healing tools instead of relying on the healers in your party, but you still had access to it if absolutely necessary.

No it doesn't need to go to pre-SHB, I really find it odd that a lot of you will insist that sustain needs this massive downside, more then the fact that tanks just simply have a bit too much especially warrior, Equilibrium is actually a good example of a cooldown that is fine on it's own (maybe take off the regen added in EW lol) but the issue is that warrior has tons and tons upon it so it becomes a self and target sustain monster.

Not to say there can't be some situationally useful sustain cooldowns such as Clemency, but at the same time can we stop trying to argue that things like aurora (which again falls under the "free heal") is a problematic cooldown on its own.

This is like me saying healers should have to cast a gcd to help tank with a mitigation if the tank doesn't wanna use mits but in reality it's fine if healers have free cooldowns, the issue is again they have too many of the same thing where your never actually playing around your cooldowns and have fallback options because you already got so much.

Funnily enough it's a team based game tanks and healers should be working together to keep the tank and party alive and funnily enough tanks don't have to encroach on healer design even when having healing cooldowns if designed properly, but in reality it's because of the abundance of healing that we have on tanks like warrior it does encroach on that design currently.

[Supersnow845]

No it doesn't need to go to pre-SHB, I really find it odd that a lot of you will insist that sustain needs this massive downside, more then the fact that tanks just simply have a bit too much especially warrior, Equilibrium is actually a good example of a cooldown that is fine on it's own (maybe take off the regen added in EW lol) but the issue is that warrior has tons and tons upon it so it becomes a self and target sustain monster.

Not to say there can't be some situationally useful sustain cooldowns such as Clemency, but at the same time can we stop trying to argue that things like aurora (which again falls under the "free heal") is a problematic cooldown on its own.

This is like me saying healers should have to cast a gcd to help tank with a mitigation if the tank doesn't wanna use mits but in reality it's fine if healers have free cooldowns, the issue is again they have too many of the same thing where your never actually playing around your cooldowns and have fallback options because you already got so much.

Funnily enough it's a team based game tanks and healers should be working together to keep the tank and party alive and funnily enough tanks don't have to encroach on healer design even when having healing cooldowns if designed properly, but in reality it's because of the abundance of healing that we have on tanks like warrior it does encroach on that design currently.

The problem is simply this game puts out so little damage that ANY healing on the tanks is too much healing

GNB can sustain itself in a dungeon with 2 charges of aurora and HOC. If it can do that then either Aurora, HOC or both is problematic as square absolutely refuses to up the amount of damage content puts out.

No matter how absolutely cracked WAR is the weaker sustain tanks still being able to keep themselves totally healthy on their own CD’s means the limit to functionally acceptable tank healing is very very low

[Rithy255]

The problem is simply this game puts out so little damage that ANY healing on the tanks is too much healing

GNB can sustain itself in a dungeon with 2 charges of aurora and HOC. If it can do that then either Aurora, HOC or both is problematic as square absolutely refuses to up the amount of damage content puts out.

No matter how absolutely cracked WAR is the weaker sustain tanks still being able to keep themselves totally healthy on their own CD’s means the limit to functionally acceptable tank healing is very very low

Do you really think healer would be anymore fun then if encounters were kept the same but we just removed "free sustain" on tanks, I really do not see how throwing a extra ogcd heal or two to replace a tanks sustain would honestly make healer anymore fun for you.

You maybe complacent with fights having very low damage profiles and tanks having absurd Mitigation value, but I'm not I want fights to actually make me use my cooldowns to the point where aurora and HOC isn't just enough to sustain throughout a entire fight.

Honestly I find this absurd we're blaming tanks like gunbreaker for having sustain tools as if this is the root issue with healer (and tank) design is obviously the encounter design with some exceptions such as warrior having way too much and gnb/pld can use some toned down in some areas without just "yeah remove it lol"

It feels like it must be this lose/lose situation where you either keep sustain on tanks and healers stay unfun, or you remove it on healers and healers become fun while tanks become less fun to play, In reality both Healers and Tanks should be improved it should be a win/win scenario, we should be wanting for fights to actually make use of our kits and even trim some of the bloat on both of our kits to actually make these "free cooldowns, mits, heals ect." becomes resources that we should be using wisely.

If you think aurora is enough to replace your entire role... maybe just maybe theirs a issue in encounter design... I wouldn't know I'm not a expert but I think just maybe that wouldn't actually be a issue with tanks and more of a issue with how fights are designed.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Some levels of "free" tank healing skills are fine no one complained about aurora in shadowbringers despite it not really having any trade offs, it's more the amount on tanks that is too much rather then tanks having any non "free" healing skills, there doesn't need to be a "cost" for tank healing skills, there just needs to be less

Aurora when it was first introduced wasn't really all that strong... 200 potency regen with a 18s duration (6 ticks, 1200 total healing potency) and 60s CD. It's been buffed twice since, to get it's second charge to make it usable more often and an extra 100 potency to take it a 1800 total... And also EW added Corundum, and in DT every tank got some form of heal attached to their Job specific mit skill.
Just take aurora back to what it was on ShB launch, maybe even increase it's CD, and that skill is fine.

One of the steps to fix stuff is definitely just start taking healing away from tanks.
WAR can keep their self-heals, since that's more or less part of the jobs identity but take away their ability to heal the party.
PLD can keep Clemency, but don't half it's cost and keep it at 4k MP cost. Remove the heal from Divine Veil. Nerf the regen on Sheltron/Intervention. And just get rid of Divine Magic Mastery II.
DRK was fine before DT.
GNB, nerf Aurora back to ShB and cut down Corundum's heal's potency.

And in general, just get nerf the heals from all the tanks level 92 version of their Job specific mit.

[Rithy255]

Aurora when it was first introduced wasn't really all that strong... 200 potency regen with a 18s duration (6 ticks, 1200 total healing potency) and 60s CD. It's been buffed twice since, to get it's second charge to make it usable more often and an extra 100 potency to take it a 1800 total... And also EW added Corundum, and in DT every tank got some form of heal attached to their Job specific mit skill.
Just take aurora back to what it was on ShB launch, maybe even increase it's CD, and that skill is fine.

One of the steps to fix stuff is definitely just start taking healing away from tanks.
WAR can keep their self-heals, since that's more or less part of the jobs identity but take away their ability to heal the party.
PLD can keep Clemency, but don't half it's cost and keep it at 4k MP cost. Remove the heal from Divine Veil. Nerf the regen on Sheltron/Intervention. And just get rid of Divine Magic Mastery II.
DRK was fine before DT.
GNB, nerf Aurora back to ShB and cut down Corundum's heal's potency.

And in general, just get nerf the heals from all the tanks level 92 version of their Job specific mit.

even old Aurora was "free sustain" which is my point entirely that some amount of free sustain has always been fine, not to say it hasn't been buffed hence why i didn't even mention some buffs its gotten.

I feel like it's odd that you would suggest to basically remove all sustain from paladin and nerf clemency then say eh just make sure warrior can't heal others but keep it's strong self healing, idk seems a bit bias like "who cares about PLD as long as we keep warriors self healing identity". I personally think healing from magic attacks needs to go, maybe veil? but if we were to nerf tanks self healing warrior should be the first one looked at imo.

I also don't think like DRK really even is a issue with sustain... like having one excog tied to a 120's ability and a 500 potency heal on a attack doesn't strike me as OP.